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It is Christian to Oppose Christmas!
- Thread starter blueridgewv
- Start date
blueridgewv
Member
This is a very ignorant and hastily made argument, and there is no small desparation to see how men justify their "traditions". Touch their idol and they become hostile, as did the Israelites when Gideon took down the alter of Baal by night.
It did not even require an institution of government or society to establishing "eating", which even nature teaches. Marriage is a civil institution, yet of divine institution first, as distinguishing men from animals and the man-woman cleavage, and designed to defend and preserve it.
But when Government is establishing a heathen form of RELIGIOUS WORSHIP (not mere eating, nor regulating marriage) it trespasses into the realm of God's laws and divine prerogatives, which men and governments have no "liberty" to abridge, or establish, apart from his revelation in the word of God, and why the first table of the Ten Commandments were given, to identify sin and condemn men for their worshipping of false gods or the true God in a false or superstitious manner (1st and 2nd commandments).
Read how God slew Aaron's sons--Nadab and Abihu--for offering "false fire", with a fire that "devoured them" in the worship of the true God, but a false and PRESUMPTIVE UNREVEALED MANNER then tell me that God is not Jealous with a holy zeal! So why should he tolerate the Baylonian custom, and subsequent Germanic customs, of Tree cutting and decoration warned of by Jeremiah?! TREMBLE when you make mirth around your tree cut down from the woods, erected in your home, and adorned with lights and stars and say you are only worshipping Jesus Christ! What blasphemy!!
No man has liberty to break God's laws, and especially mix heathen worship into pretended worship of him. "Those who sacrifice to idols worship demons"--whether they acknowledge it or not.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Let me see ...
I did not cut my tree
I did not use an ax
I don't have any gold or silver
I do not fasten it with nails and hammers
And then verse 5
So...
I will not be afraid
It can do no evil, nor any good
blueridgewv
Member
Aside from your rude insult (the tactic of those who cannot argue on facts), your argument here is at fault--ergo, JWs breathe air, therefore we are JWs if we breathe air. It is not uncommon (due to Satan's craft) for heretical groups to pickup on a true error of the churches in order to lead astray in other doctrines. (You may have as well used Quakers as an example, while most are ignorant of their historic heresies as anti-scripturalists). [bold]Was Charles Spurgeon or the Pilgrims JWs because they spoke against Christmas? That is your erroneous and slanderous implication.[/bold]
The support of Christmas by almost the entire world almost proves that it is an anti-Christian holiday, for Jesus said "be not suprised if the world hates you", and that anti-Christ is a deceiver of many. And the support of the idol called Christmas by the Judeo-Masonry cabal and Roman "republi-crats"--who say "Jesus is my favorite philosopher" (GWB)--in government, do not worship, in truth, our Christ either, for they all bow, and enforce, tolerance of false Gods, including Allah, and kiss the Pope's ring, revere Obelisks and statues (graven images), embrace anti-Christian culture (even Ozzy Osbourne), and communistic social order (pretended absolute equality), and all religions, thereby attempting to debase the true God and Jesus Christ of real Christianity. "One nation, under God", so they say, but "their god is not our God, even our enemies being witnesses". (Flip over your one dollar bill and see the "God" of Judeo-Masonry, from Egypt, on the Great Seal of Pharoah's new government). They are Deists not Christians, limiting government to "natural law", according to their "rights of man" (Democracy, Humanism), while usurping God's "divine rights" in worship.
Christmas is a practice of virtually the whole world which loves it, which is a great clue that it is a false religious practice. So it is the WORLDLY CHURCH that supports it--mimicking in a superstitious manner: "Merry Christmas", commanding all to bow to this as if it were the real test of Christian faith, when according to Christians of history, it was contrary to it.
It is nothing less than modern golden calf worship, for which God almost destroyed Israel, had not Moses interceded.
We will not cease to "lay the axe to the root of this (idolatrous) tree", nor will we bow on Nebuchadnezzer's, or the modern churches', command, nor be silent about its practice!
December 25 is probably the day the Magoi visited Jesus. That is one, almost forgotten, reason Christians don't mind celebrating it.
And it depends on what you do with the day and the season. When my kids were little, I made a rude "manger" and had a tiny baby doll that would fit it. I would keep the baby doll hidden until Christmas morning, but around the manger, on the table, were pieces of yarn (usually yellow). The idea was that each time one of the kids did a hidden good deed for someone else, they were allowed to put a bit of yarn in the manger. It taught the kids the idea of doing something for Christ and not for public recognition. On Christmas morning, without fail, they would check to see the baby in the manger BEFORE checking gifts. I think that was mission accomplished.
It all depends, you see, on what you do with the holiday.
And it depends on what you do with the day and the season. When my kids were little, I made a rude "manger" and had a tiny baby doll that would fit it. I would keep the baby doll hidden until Christmas morning, but around the manger, on the table, were pieces of yarn (usually yellow). The idea was that each time one of the kids did a hidden good deed for someone else, they were allowed to put a bit of yarn in the manger. It taught the kids the idea of doing something for Christ and not for public recognition. On Christmas morning, without fail, they would check to see the baby in the manger BEFORE checking gifts. I think that was mission accomplished.
It all depends, you see, on what you do with the holiday.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I am sure glad that blueridgewv is not the one I am accountable to.
blueridgewv
Member
Let me see ...
I did not cut my tree
I did not use an ax
I don't have any gold or silver
I do not fasten it with nails and hammers
And then verse 5
So...
I will not be afraid
It can do no evil, nor any good </font>[/QUOTE]I reply,
Jeremiahs command is that they should not imitate heathen customs, no matter what. The use of trees (and the similarities despite your literalistic dodging is obvious) in religious worship is a heathen custom as both the Old Testament and any encyclopedia will show.
As to Jeremiah's "be not afraid of them"--i.e. do not fear, or reverence, them, superstitiously, does not abolish his command to not imitate the "customs" of the heathen land. He means do not revere the gods they truly represent. But does he approve of their useage of them for worshipping Jehovah? Hardly!
But, I would submit that you actually DO fear, in a manner, this superstitious worship and tree-erecting, or perhaps your family or wife, for if you would REMOVE this idol from your home, you fear the consequences of not partaking in the religious (sic) tradition! Is that not fear-induced, like those who fear dissenting from a majority? Look at the subtle tyranny of Christmas, and how force is used to compel to keep up the ritual--that has no command or example in the word of God, which is practiced more intensly that keeping the Lord's Day (commemorating his resurrection) every week! THAT is superstitious fear, and a slavish fear and imitation of a religious ritual, which only has the name of Christ blasphemously stamped upon it.
You can tell Christmas tree erecting is idolatrous, because of the wrath it invokes when others cry for its abolishment, and the firmness by which it is held--AS IF IT IS A TEST OF TRUE CHRISTIANITY!
It sounds like blueridgewv and Brother James have some problems with false idol worship in their lives. In their case, I strongly encourage them not to participate in false worship.
For the rest of us who do not participate in false worship on Christmas, there is no problem. Merry Christmas to you.
For the rest of us who do not participate in false worship on Christmas, there is no problem. Merry Christmas to you.
Um, who here has been the least bit wrathful except for you? The only one questioning people's love for God and their true Christianity here is you.
So far as I have seen, the majority people in this thread have the spiritual maturity and discernment to properly understand the things that you wrote.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Amaizing I am attacked for taking the word of God literally.
Force to compel keeping the ritual?
What on earth are you talking about with this line.
You have accused a fellow believer of blasphemy.
Tell you what, I'll stand before God and tell Him why I had a Christmas tree and you tell Him why you falsely accused His child of being a blasphemer.
I've known some Footbaal idolaters out during the season ...
Seriously, I dislike much of the commercialism that accompanies what passes for Christmas, and that really irks me more than folks who like trees and lights and being with family — and remembering the Nativity.
I'm not afraid of trees or a lack thereof; didn't put one up last year. I may get out the little fiber optic tree this year. Guarantee I won't be saying any prayers to it. (I gave up talking to plants years ago; they're just too disputatious. I suspect they're all Baptists deep down.)
blueridgewv
Member
So says the false prophet, "Peace, peace', keep your idolatry, do not hearken to the voice of Jeremiah, that nay-sayer. Back to your traditions, for we are righteous in our own eyes, for I am a 'pastor', and a 'moderator', and therefore the final word, despite what our forefathers taught in Christian history!"
What an incredible response, as if this is the final word and authority, despite the rebukes of great pastors from history, which he will not hear! Just who, sir, has the problem which false idol worship, but those who keep it up?
The other moderator's blanket endorsement tells us:
Yes "just do it" (as the neo-Roman church says), do not listen to the warning of your forefathers, nor the warnings of scripture about imitating heathen customs and traditions. Be stubborn and stiff-necked like the apostate Jews, establishing your Golden Calf worship--"to the Lord"! God is no longer Jealous for his name, but he will bow down to your absolute "liberty" to take his name in vain (3rd commandment), nor cares one tittle about HOW he is worshipped (2nd commandment), so long as you are "sincere", you may mix any pagan, Judaistic, Babylonian or heathen customs you wish, call it "Christian"--PRESTO! (Just like the priest-craft of paedo-baptism work their magic on children with a little sprinkling!) You now have a "Christian" holiday, full of symbols and superstitious ritualistic repetition, trees, candles, lights---but it is just fine so long as it it supported with "tithes and offerings", modern sacrifices, to the high priests of the so-called Christian churches, though it is rebuked by Spurgeon, Ironside, W.E. Vine, and abominated by the Pilgrims, that everyone pretends to respect on "Thanksgiving Day"--the day that launches the holiday merchandising orgy by the real Scrooges on Wall Street! What a Confederacy of corporations with religious idolatry, like "Alexander the coppersmith", who did Paul "much harm", because he rebuked idolatry--always so profitable!
IT NO DOUBT PLEASES YOU, BUT DOES IT PLEASE THE JEALOUS AND HOLY GOD, OR HIS SON WHO WILL RETURN AS JUDGE--WHOSE "EYES ARE AS FLAME OF FIRE"?!
Do not think, but just follow blindly--contrary to true Christian liberty of conscience, contrary to your forefathers in the faith (i.e. pre-20th century). Head toward Rome, both pagan and papal, bow to your tree idols, establish your "groves", raise your "pillars" (obelisks) and call it all "Christian"!
The rest of us will call it "Anti-Christ".
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I have no interest in Rome
I never bow before the Christmas tree
I have never established a grove (would love to have an apple grove though
I have never raised a pillar (or an obelisk)
Once again we appear to have "bearing false witness."
I wonder which offends God more, a Christmas tree or bearing false witness against the brethren?
It would be impossible for me to keep idolatry since I never had any. It is beyond ludicrous to imagine that Jeremiah was talking about Christmas trees, but if you have a problem with it, then don't do it. A Christmas tree isn't a tradition for me. We are not putting one up this year. I am a pastor, and spend my time studying the word, which is how I know that you are incorrectly applying Scripture in this matter.
If you have a problem with it, then don't keep it up. I can only speak for myself when I say that I am not worshipping false idols. I am not offering the final word and authority. I am merely pointing out the obvious ... that if Christmas causes you to worship falsely, then you should not do it. But there are many of us who do not struggle with false worship at Christmas. And therefore, you should not bind us by your conscience.
Actually, if you knew your Bible you would recognize that as not the moderator's opinion, but rather God's opinion on special days.
I can assure you that you pick and choose which "forefathers" you will listen to. You ignore their warnings on a great many other things.
I have listened to them and obey them. What I am not bound to is your particular indiosyncracies on this matter.
yes it does. God is pleased when his Son is worshipped.
And the rest of you will be wrong. But you are certainly entitled to follow the dictates of your conscience. If you have this problem with false idol worship, then by all means, refrain.
Moderators of this forum, I think we need to crack down on these personal attacks. This post to me was laced with attacks that have no place in civil conversation among Christian brothers. We have had accusations of blasphemy, Romanism, idolatry, and the like. Let's put a stop to this before we have more problems.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Pastor Larry,
I would normally agree 100% with cracking down on personal attacks, but somehow these attacks have not bothered me at all.
Perchance it is the origin of the attacks?
I would normally agree 100% with cracking down on personal attacks, but somehow these attacks have not bothered me at all.
Perchance it is the origin of the attacks?
The attacks don't bother me. I find them humorous. But I think it doesn't help the atmosphere of the board. When someone rants and raves and it is tolerated, it sends a message to others and encourages like-minded responses. When they rant and rave on such a weak theological basis, it is even worse. I am always of hte mind that we ought to get exercised about things that God gets exercised about. Christmas just isn't one of those things.
When we nip this in the bud, we send the message that we will not tolerate this type of unbiblical behavior.
When we nip this in the bud, we send the message that we will not tolerate this type of unbiblical behavior.
Hi blueridgewv,
you said (also quoting the charlestown catechism of 1797)
KJV Numbers 33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
Deuteronomy 16
22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.
So you need now to destroy all your pictures set up in your house including the ones in the secret place of your wallet.
KJV Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.
Also your money which is in your wallet, more images in the secret place.
That money has pagan images engravened from heaven above and earth below all over it.
For instance on the back of the $1.00 is the image of the all seeing eye of Isis the "Mother of the gods" above the symbol of Osirus and Horus (the Pyramid). This adds insult to injury in the breaking of the Second Commandment.
The Hebrew Shekel had no image upon it until after the sack of Jerusalem because of the second commandment.
Well, you said that the government imposes certain regulations upon us that we can't avoid.
Might I remind you that the early Roman Christians would not honor the gods of Rome or their images unto the point of death. So the regulations can indeed be avoided but will you pay the price?
Did you respond to my post about the names of the days of the week. Will you ask your pastor to change from a church calendar which honors false gods if it uses the druid pantheon names of the gods of this world some of which are worshipped right now in the 21st century?
KJV Exodus 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
What is so difficult about saying "prayer meeting will be 7:00 PM on the Fourth day of the week, instead of "on Wednesday" honoring the god Woden?
Will you purge all these names from your vocabulary?
Do you know anyone named Dianne? You shoudn't say her name, it's the name of a goddess. There are many others you won't be able to talk with (unless you call them something else).
HankD
[ December 03, 2005, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
you said (also quoting the charlestown catechism of 1797)
The Law of Moses not only forbids the worship of images but their possession as well. This includes pictures.
KJV Numbers 33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
Deuteronomy 16
22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.
So you need now to destroy all your pictures set up in your house including the ones in the secret place of your wallet.
KJV Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.
Also your money which is in your wallet, more images in the secret place.
That money has pagan images engravened from heaven above and earth below all over it.
For instance on the back of the $1.00 is the image of the all seeing eye of Isis the "Mother of the gods" above the symbol of Osirus and Horus (the Pyramid). This adds insult to injury in the breaking of the Second Commandment.
The Hebrew Shekel had no image upon it until after the sack of Jerusalem because of the second commandment.
Well, you said that the government imposes certain regulations upon us that we can't avoid.
Might I remind you that the early Roman Christians would not honor the gods of Rome or their images unto the point of death. So the regulations can indeed be avoided but will you pay the price?
Did you respond to my post about the names of the days of the week. Will you ask your pastor to change from a church calendar which honors false gods if it uses the druid pantheon names of the gods of this world some of which are worshipped right now in the 21st century?
KJV Exodus 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
What is so difficult about saying "prayer meeting will be 7:00 PM on the Fourth day of the week, instead of "on Wednesday" honoring the god Woden?
Will you purge all these names from your vocabulary?
Do you know anyone named Dianne? You shoudn't say her name, it's the name of a goddess. There are many others you won't be able to talk with (unless you call them something else).
HankD
[ December 03, 2005, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
the apostle Paul once talked about not eating meat offered to idols.....and yet his reason for this because of the conscience of those others watching. NOT because God would have really been offended by the eating of that meat.
He then went on to say, as others have mentioned, that if we choose to honor a day, we should do it unto the Lord, and if we choose NOT to honor that day, than we should do THAT as unto the Lord.
The ONLY people I ever see claiming that Christmas trees are "baal bushes" are CHristians who have chosen NOT to honor the day as unto the Lord. If they choose that, then that is part of their Christian liberty.
However, by having a Christmas tree we can do so to honor Christ, and we can honor the day as unto the Lord.....as it IS unto the Lord's birth. That is part of OUR Christian liberty.
Either way, I do not believe that God is offended. We are not worshipping the tree, nor are we worshipping Baal. The Christmas holiday is not dedicated to a "god" by another name, nor does it define God in an unBiblical way.
He then went on to say, as others have mentioned, that if we choose to honor a day, we should do it unto the Lord, and if we choose NOT to honor that day, than we should do THAT as unto the Lord.
The ONLY people I ever see claiming that Christmas trees are "baal bushes" are CHristians who have chosen NOT to honor the day as unto the Lord. If they choose that, then that is part of their Christian liberty.
However, by having a Christmas tree we can do so to honor Christ, and we can honor the day as unto the Lord.....as it IS unto the Lord's birth. That is part of OUR Christian liberty.
Either way, I do not believe that God is offended. We are not worshipping the tree, nor are we worshipping Baal. The Christmas holiday is not dedicated to a "god" by another name, nor does it define God in an unBiblical way.
I think this would prove to be a civil and interesting debate if it didn't start so... well MexDeaf said it best.
If we were to not celebrate Christmas, then along the same lines, why do we hold services on Sunday and call it SUNDAY school and SUNDAY worship and SUNDAY evening service? Sunday comes from the Germanic sun goddess Sunne. To say you go to Sunday service without a problem and say you don't celebrate Christmas because it is wicked is hypocrisy.
Yes. This time of year has pagan roots. But I feel it's better to turn the pagan tradition around and celebrate Christ instead.
So the question is: What would you rather do?
1) Celebrate a pagan holiday and a pagan god on the 25th.
2) Remain quiet and locked up in your house on the 25th.
3) Turn this pagan holiday 180 degrees around and celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ on the 25th.
Some may choose to do #1. They are wicked. Some choose to do #2. That's fine to be neutral, I have nothing against it. Some choose to do #3, and I think that's even better.
But then there's:
4) Condemn everyone who chooses #3.
I don't think that's right.
If we were to not celebrate Christmas, then along the same lines, why do we hold services on Sunday and call it SUNDAY school and SUNDAY worship and SUNDAY evening service? Sunday comes from the Germanic sun goddess Sunne. To say you go to Sunday service without a problem and say you don't celebrate Christmas because it is wicked is hypocrisy.
Yes. This time of year has pagan roots. But I feel it's better to turn the pagan tradition around and celebrate Christ instead.
So the question is: What would you rather do?
1) Celebrate a pagan holiday and a pagan god on the 25th.
2) Remain quiet and locked up in your house on the 25th.
3) Turn this pagan holiday 180 degrees around and celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ on the 25th.
Some may choose to do #1. They are wicked. Some choose to do #2. That's fine to be neutral, I have nothing against it. Some choose to do #3, and I think that's even better.
But then there's:
4) Condemn everyone who chooses #3.
I don't think that's right.