It Is Not Possible To Know God By One's Own Furtherance.

[Stegley]

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.
Does He do the same for you?

Scripture clearly states in its Text Believers are the Children of God as an axiomatic principle. When the Holy Spirit bears witness of that fact is He giving individual advice to a Believer? No, He is not.

Now, does the Holy Spirit ever give individual advice to a person through an inner voice speaking to that person? Yes? No?

 

[Stegley]

I am not interested in word games, to manifest knowledge of God is to speak inwardly. You can deny it, if you want. However, your statement is unbiblical. And I am waiting for you to answer my question, "how would we know He has given us the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit does not manifest itself within us?

The simple answer all pewsitters can have for that question is they can know He has given then the Holy Spirit "by Faith." Sound familiar?

Remember, there is no Scripture showing the Holy Spirit "speaking" to an individual in their mind or "heart."

 

[DHK]

Scripture clearly states in its Text Believers are the Children of God as an axiomatic principle. When the Holy Spirit bears witness of that fact is He giving individual advice to a Believer? No, He is not.

Now, does the Holy Spirit ever give individual advice to a person through an inner voice speaking to that person? Yes? No?

To use another translation:

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;

I will repeat:
The Holy Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am a child of God.
Does the Holy Spirit testify or bear witness with your spirit?
Yes or no? How would you know?

 

[Stegley]

To use another translation:

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;

I will repeat:
The Holy Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am a child of God.
Does the Holy Spirit testify or bear witness with your spirit?
Yes or no? How would you know?

Romans 8:16 does not show the Holy Speaking words of infividual advice to a person, but rather confirming what Scripture already has in its Text.

 

[DHK]

Romans 8:16 does not show the Holy Speaking words of infividual advice to a person, but rather confirming what Scripture already has in its Text.

It is evident you don't understand the text. Perhaps the Holy Spirit has never borne witness with your spirit. If that is the case take another admonition from Paul:
"Examine yourself to see whether you are in the faith."

 

[Stegley]

Luke 1:41-45
Acts 7:55-56
Acts 11:28

I suppose there are more.

Yes, thank you for those references. It is notable about each of these instances showing enhanced individual perception by The Holy Spirit:

1.) The Holy Spirit gave no knowledge about God Himself.

2.) The Holy Spirit enabled each person to give Prophetic utterance, just as He always does.

3.) The Holy Spirit revealed nothing out of course with the rest of Scripture: Mary already knew Jesus was within her, Stephen already knew Jesus has ascended into Heaven, and Agabus confirmed Jesus' previous information about His Believers becoming victimized for their faith.

The Holy Spirit does not hand out individual advice for people. That is the job of Angels, who are "Messengers."

 

[Stegley]

It is evident you don't understand the text. Perhaps the Holy Spirit has never borne witness with your spirit. If that is the case take another admonition from Paul:
"Examine yourself to see whether you ahre in the faith."

It is such fun to watch Christians resort to patronizing little admonitions as you just did when they have tunnel vision. Lol.

Angels give messages from God, The Holy Spirit gives the Prophetic Word of God. Try to remember this simple and useful lesson.

Share more of your best ideas with me. I love your precious heart.

 

[Van]

The simple answer all pewsitters can have for that question is they can know He has given then the Holy Spirit "by Faith." Sound familiar?

Remember, there is no Scripture showing the Holy Spirit "speaking" to an individual in their mind or "heart."

What about all those "inspired" scriptures.

And did anyone say the Holy Spirit speaks to us with an audible voice? Nope

I have provided two verses, and others added to the list, of scriptures teaching the Holy Spirit interacts with born anew believers to bring their sins to mind, and to point toward the path of righteousness for our life. The Spirit gives us insight into scripture such that we are able to discern spiritual meat.

In Romans 8:23, we have the first fruits of the Spirit, such as waiting eagerly for our adoption (bodily resurrection) as sons. This would be an example of being led by the Holy Spirit.

We know we abide in Him, and He in us because He has given us His Spirit. How would we know He has given us the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit does not manifest itself within us? By faith you say. Wrong. We are saved through faith, but our assurance is bolstered by evidence of the Spirit's interaction within us.

 

[Van]

In Luke 1:41, John the Baptist, as a preborn baby still in the womb, discerned the presence of Jesus. Sounds like evidence of the Spirit interacting with John the Baptist.

In Acts, Steven was given a vision by the Holy Spirit. Visions can provide information concerning God. So another interaction by the Spirit within an individual.

 

[Stegley]

It is evident you don't understand the text. Perhaps the Holy Spirit has never borne witness with your spirit. If that is the case take another admonition from Paul:
"Examine yourself to see whether you are in the faith."

It is evident you are only able to read in between the lines of Scripture rather than grasping the lines themselves.

Are you unable to actually say where in Corinthians and Romans The Holy Spirit is Shown "speaking" to an individual about distinctly individual matters, or about The Father beyond what is already disclosed in Scripture?

 

[Stegley]

What about all those "inspired" scriptures.

And did anyone say the Holy Spirit speaks to us with an audible voice? Nope

I have provided two verses, and others added to the list, of scriptures teaching the Holy Spirit interacts with born anew believers to bring their sins to mind, and to point toward the path of righteousness for our life. The Spirit gives us insight into scripture such that we are able to discern spiritual meat.

In Romans 8:23, we have the first fruits of the Spirit, such as waiting eagerly for our adoption (bodily resurrection) as sons. This would be an example of being led by the Holy Spirit.

We know we abide in Him, and He in us because He has given us His Spirit. How would we know He has given us the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit does not manifest itself within us? By faith you say. Wrong. We are saved through faith, but our assurance is bolstered by evidence of the Spirit's interaction within us.

How do you accurately distinguish The Holy Spirit's activity within your mind from your own inner voice? I predict you have no distinct answer.

 

[DHK]

It is evident you are only able to read in between the lines of Scripture rather than grasping the lines themselves.

Are you unable to actually say where in Corinthians and Romans The Holy Spirit is Shown "speaking" to an individual about distinctly individual matters, or about The Father beyond what is already disclosed in Scripture?

1 Corinthians 2:12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that were freely given to us by God.
True believers are given the Spirit of God. One of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to illuminate the believer "that he might know the things that are freely given to him by God." This is not happen to unbelievers. The Holy Spirit reveals to believers revelation that he does not reveal to unbelievers. That is communication.


13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.
--In addition the believer is able to speak those things which the Spirit teaches, contrasted to man's wisdom. He is able to compare spiritual things to spiritual things, something that the unsaved man cannot do. Why? The Holy Spirit dwells within him and works within him, and communicates with him, and bears witness with him.

In contrast:
14 Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The natural man (unsaved man) does not and cannot receive the things of God's Spirit because they are foolishness to him. He is spiritually discerned or judged. He does not have the Holy Spirit. He is separated from God, and is unable to have any communication with him whatsoever. To God he is dead spiritually. God cannot communicate with a dead man.

 

[Van]

Hi Stegley, I do not base my statement that the Holy Spirit leads me because I think I hear God's audible voice. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit interacts with born anew believers in various ways. You deny it, but you are no prophet, either.

I can remember studying a passage and being in a quandary as to how to understand it. But as I prayed and studied, an insight arose in my mind. Was it me or the prompting of the Holy Spirit? Because it is consistent with scripture, I believe it was the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Might I be mistaken? Of course.

But, I believe, all of us who are born anew and indwelt with the Holy Spirit have experienced evidence of His presence. OTOH, it is those who cannot discern the Spirit's presence who need to worry about Matthew 7.

 

[Van]

Hi DHK, God made known His attributes to "spiritually dead" folks, so He can and does communicate in various ways with "spiritually dead" folks.

If your view was correct, Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables.

 

[DHK]

Hi DHK, God made known His attributes to "spiritually dead" folks, so He can and does communicate in various ways with "spiritually dead" folks.

If your view was correct, Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables.

Jesus spoke in parables when he was in the flesh, living on this earth. There was a difference.
Consider Capernaum. There is no city in the world today that can fall under such condemnation as Capernaum did. Why? Because they visually could see the signs and wonders that he did; they could audibly hear his voice and the words that he spoke. "If Sodom and Gomorrah could he hear and see the things that that they did they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes," Jesus said. Therefore there came a time when Jesus would no longer go to Capernaum because of their unbelief.

I don't believe that sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can be committed any longer. Why? Because it required the presence of Jesus in the flesh. The Pharisees were right there in the presence of Jesus seeing the miracles that he did. They proceeded to attribute his miracles to Beelzebub, the prince of demons. To attribute what Jesus did in the power of the Spirit to the power of demons is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But they could see what Jesus did in the flesh. We can't do that today.

Jesus spoke in parables while he was on earth.
We have the written Word of God today. The Ethiopian Eunuch could not understand the Word without the help of someone else. "How can I understand, lest someone help me?" he said.
And Philip began from the same passage and preached unto him Jesus".
Philip could do that because of the understanding of Scripture that God had given him through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Van]

To repeat, if "spiritually dead" folks could not understand the milk of the gospel, then Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables.

Jesus said we (those living after the time of Christ's incarnation) could trust in Him through faith, again teaching communication through the call of the inspired gospel.

The whole premise that being spiritually dead (spiritually separated from the living God) precludes the ability to set our minds on some spiritual things (milk) is bogus. Notice Paul speaking to new converts as "men of flesh" demonstrates "men of flesh" could understand spiritual milk.

 

[DHK]

To repeat, if "spiritually dead" folks could not understand the milk of the gospel, then Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables.

Jesus said we (those living after the time of Christ's incarnation) could trust in Him through faith, again teaching communication through the call of the inspired gospel.

The whole premise that being spiritually dead (spiritually separated from the living God) precludes the ability to set our minds on some spiritual things (milk) is bogus. Notice Paul speaking to new converts as "men of flesh" demonstrates "men of flesh" could understand spiritual milk.

They understood when Jesus spoke (some of them)
They understood when the apostles preached.
The Ethiopian eunuch understood, only when Philip explained.
The 3,000 were saved, after Peter preached, not before.

The Great Commission was given so that men might go with the gospel in order that men might here the gospel, understand it, and be saved. Without the preaching of the gospel they will not be saved.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us it is the power of God.

 

[Van]

You claimed spiritually dead folks could not understand the milk of the gospel. But if that were true, then Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables.

1) The reason Jesus spoke in parables was to prevent some of those spiritually dead folks from hearing and understanding and being healed.

2) Of course the spiritual milk of the gospel must be preached, that is not the issue. The issue is that I believe the Bible teaches spiritually dead folks can understand and appropriately respond to the gospel.

3) We are saved by grace through faith. We are not saved by grace and given faith. To be saved through faith means we had faith before we were saved, i.e. put in Christ spiritually. Before we were in Christ we were dead spiritually, for we were made alive together with Christ.

Total Spiritual Inability is mistaken doctrine, the Biblical doctrine is Limited Spiritual Ability, which we can loose either by the hardening of God, or the practice of sin. Before we are in Christ, our spiritual ability is limited to understanding spiritual milk. When spiritually dead we cannot discern spiritual meat.

 

[DHK]

You claimed spiritually dead folks could not understand the milk of the gospel. But if that were true, then Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables.

1) The reason Jesus spoke in parables was to prevent some of those spiritually dead folks from hearing and understanding and being healed.

2) Of course the spiritual milk of the gospel must be preached, that is not the issue. The issue is that I believe the Bible teaches spiritually dead folks can understand and appropriately respond to the gospel.

3) We are saved by grace through faith. We are not saved by grace and given faith. To be saved through faith means we had faith before we were saved, i.e. put in Christ spiritually. Before we were in Christ we were dead spiritually, for we were made alive together with Christ.

Total Spiritual Inability is mistaken doctrine, the Biblical doctrine is Limited Spiritual Ability, which we can loose either by the hardening of God, or the practice of sin. Before we are in Christ, our spiritual ability is limited to understanding spiritual milk. When spiritually dead we cannot discern spiritual meat.

I don't know why you are arguing with my Van. I agree with you more than you think. I am not a Calvinist. I don't agree with Total Inability. I do agree that man has a free will. But I also believe in the depravity of man, but not the total inability of man. Otherwise God would not give a command for all men everywhere to repent.
However spiritual enlightenment must come from somewhere. Think of it this way. God left the future of the entire world in the hands of just eleven men. He had no back up plan. What if they had failed? The point is that God uses men to disseminate the Gospel. He does not use mysticism.

 

[Van]

Apparently I was arguing because I did not understand your position, my bad. Spiritual enlightenment comes from hearing and understanding God's revelation. And if you believe fallen men of flesh can hear and understand the milk of the gospel, we are on the same page.