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It is not theory. So what and how should . . . be called?

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Had Calvin not studied Aquinas (Summa Theologiae) we wouldn't be discussing penal substitution today

You are correct that Penal Substitution is a Western concept. But you need to understand that the Bible is not written from a Western perspective. The Presbyterian and Roman Catholic Church were perhaps the most influential entity in the development of Western thought as we know it.

The composite nature of PSA explains why few Christians before the reformation defined PSA exactly as the Reformed did, while most pre-reformation Christians affirmed the first principles that would make up the doctrine."

As Grudem noted, this is built upon but foreign to Christianity for its first 2000 years.

And like Wayne Grudem (a theologian who holds the theory) noted, while built on past theological concepts Penal Substitution did not exist until almost 2,000 years after Christ was crucified.

I was under the impression you had studied (formally) theology. Have you never read how others prior to John Calvin viewed our sins being laid on Christ (as "solidarity", "the Son of Man", "Incarnation") ???

You know that studying what the Church Fathers can get into
some very deep water with all of the details in interpreting
what they actually and what they actually might not have said.

You also know that I can bring out where they believed PSA.

However, I know that you can pull out denials and refutations of the same.

Then, when you consider all the postings and things that you have said
about and against PSA, I still A.) don't have a clue why you're against it,
and B.) I don't know at all what you believe about the Atonement,
if you have ever really said it in there somewhere.

(I'm just stuck where I see PSA* as being what defines
"Christianity" as being "CHRISTIANITY" /
and then with the rest being Pagon.)

* (or specifically, The IPSRA hybrid).

Here are some interestingly enough links on The Atonement,
for what they are worth, AS "A LITTLE LIGHT READING" :Cry:

https://www.monergism.com/thethresh...trine_of_The_Atonement_a_-_George_Smeaton.pdf

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/smeaton/TheDoctrineoftheAtonementA - George Smeaton.pdf
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
You know that studying what the Church Fathers can get into
some very deep water with all of the details in interpreting
what they actually and what they actually might not have said.

You also know that I can bring out where they believed PSA.

However, I know that you can pull out denials and refutations of the same.

Then, when you consider all the postings and things that you have said
about and against PSA, I still A.) don't have a clue why you're against it,
and B.) I don't know at all what you believe about the Atonement,
if you have ever really said it in there somewhere.

(I'm just stuck where I see PSA* as being what defines
"Christianity" as being "CHRISTIANITY" /
and then with the rest being Pagon.)

* (or specifically, The IPSRA hybrid).

Here are some interestingly enough links on The Atonement,
for what they are worth, AS "A LITTLE LIGHT READING" :Cry:

https://www.monergism.com/thethresh...trine_of_The_Atonement_a_-_George_Smeaton.pdf

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/smeaton/TheDoctrineoftheAtonementA - George Smeaton.pdf
Who said anything about studying the Church Father's?

I'm talking about how John Calvin developed Penal Substitution.

Just because Calvin came up with it doesn't make it wrong. He was a good theologian.

But the criteria is Scriprure and that is where Calvin failed. He tried to reform the RCC position, and perhaps it worked for him. But in the end he articulated an Atonement theory based on his judicial philosophy.

I do not need to read defenses for Penal Substitution because I held it and defended it most of my life.

I also know that you cannot produce even one person prior to John Calvin who taught that God punished Jesus instead of us.

What you will do is post page after page of Christians who taught that Jesus died for our sins, that by His stripes we were healed, that it was God's will to put Him to grief and a bunch of other things we all believe.

But let's play your game :).

Reply with one quote (not a page) from one person before the Reformation stating that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

NOTE!!!! - NOT a quote and then you explaining what somebody meant. An actual quote.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
But "penal and substitution" is still theoretical (Scripture does not present Christ's work as a substitution or even penal in the sense of a punishment).
We disagree. Isaiah 53:6, . . . the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
We disagree. Isaiah 53:6, . . . the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
On this point it is more than a disagreement. You are simply wrong.

I don't mean in your interpretation (I believe you are wrong there, but that is a disagreement).

You are wrong because what you believe IS a theory. That theory may be correct, but it is a theory nonetheless and your post proves this.

You theorize that God transferred our sins from us and placed them on Christ.

That is NOT what Scripture states, and thar is the reason Penal Substitution will always be a theory even if it is correct. It exceeds Scripture.

Prior to and apart from Penal Substitution Christians believed that the Lord laid our iniquity upon Him, that He bore our sins bodily on the cross.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
On this point it is more than a disagreement. You are simply wrong.
I would rather be wrong then. Penal refers to Ezekiel 18:4. Subsitution, Isaiah 53:6, . . . and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I would rather be wrong then. Penal refers to Ezekiel 18:4. Subsitution, Isaiah 53:6, . . . and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
I think you may have misunderstood my point.

For a moment set aside which view of the Atonement is correct.

What you hold is a theory because it is not actually what Scripture states.

Penal Substitution has nothing to do with Ezekiel 18:4 (which is not, by definition of the text, substitution).

Our disagreement is that I believe the text itself accurately describes the Atonement while you believe a theory about that text is superior.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
That is fallacy. You see, by the same argument the Trinity is just theory.
No, that is a false statement (this is actually an example of "intellectual dishonesty" as discussed on another thread....not dishonesty, mind you, but you are changing standards within your defense).

The difference between Christian theories and doctrines systematically derived from Scripture is the former (Christian theories) expands on what is not there but may be true while the latter topically compiles what is there to form doctrine.

That said, if you read the Bible and cannot find that God is One, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God then you do hold the doctrine of the Trinity as a theory.


We all hold Christian theories. This is most prominent, across the board, in eschatology.

But we have to be distinguish between our understanding of Scripture, our theories, and God's Word.

It appears you may be having difficulty in this area. The reason is you keep posting verses along with terms unrelated to the actual text you quote.

Have you ever wondered why, given the detail in God's Word, God never saw fit to include penal substitution in the actual text of Scripture but instead left it hidden for almost 2000 years awaiting the Reformation?
 
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37818

Well-Known Member
No, that is a false statement (this is actually an example of "intellectual dishonesty" as discussed on another thread....not dishonesty, mind you, but you are changing standards within your defense).

The difference between Christian theories and doctrines systematically derived from Scripture is the former (Christian theories) expands on what is not there but may be true while the latter topically compiles what is there to form doctrine.

. . . is a theory because it is not actually what Scripture states.
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
Have you ever wondered why, given the detail in God's Word, God never saw fit to include penal substitution in the actual text of Scripture but instead left it hidden for almost 2000 years awaiting the Reformation?

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

Isaiah like Daniel never even mentioned the Cross, but Jesus being cut off.

Isaiah claims it was the stripes or beating Jesus received that healed us.

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."

That process started in the Garden when Jesus started to sweat drops of blood.

The point of suffering was already placed on Jesus prior to the form of death, via a Roman Cross. Even Paul pointed out it was cursed to hang on a tree, not that the Cross was the substitute way to die.

The Cross was for that generation to realize how far they would go to cut off their own Messiah in total rejection.

To simply die and be cut off would have worked to fulfill the OT Scriptures. Now one can argue that Moses lifted up the serpent on a stake, but that was used by Jesus explaining to Nicodemus something new and different from the OT.

The argument could be made that only Adam needed to be punished for disobedience, as only by his disobedience, death happened. Had things worked out according to human theory, only Adam would need to be redeemed. Because no one seems to acknowledge that Adam physically died that day. They theorize with Satan, that Adam would not die, but in a "state of death" would eventually physically die. That is Satan deception on the church, and not sure when that deception took hold.

Adam and Eve did physically die that day. God took away their permanent incorruptible physical body, and gave them a body of death, that was corruptible with decay. So all were born after Noah into death, and were already dead. What Jesus finished was the power of that death, by physically dying, and bringing His body back to life again. And it was a Cross, because Jesus told Nicodemus it would be a Cross.

So the Lamb had already suffered the penalty of sin, even before the Cross. Being slain fulfilled the cut off part. Jesus then experienced death as all who have lived death. And that moment was when death was broken for all the OT redeemed. They experienced the resurrection of life from that moment on.

From that moment, it was finished, those redeemed in Christ would never taste death, nor would physical death be a death ending. The only state of death would be this current physical body they were born with.

It was not that a lamb had to die under the Law. It was that the sin of that person was transferred prior to death. So death was not transferred, the sin was transferred. The substitution was not in the death, because the sinner was already dead. The substitution was that the lamb took on that sin prior to death. Then the lamb had to die. Jesus had to experience death, but had already been the substitution for the sin.

From both the OT point and the NT point one can justify a separation from the Cross and the actual fulfillment of taking on the sin of the world. But most forget about the judgment prior to the Cross, and see the Cross as the only point of sin being carried.

Jesus also had to be cut off, as that is the only way God would also experience death itself. But the Cross was not the point of substitution. Humans are already dead, they don't have to die because of sin. That is what most do not take under consideration. The OT redeemed were made alive even before Jesus rose from the dead, ie was made alive.

That is why Matthew 27:52-53 sounds strange to us.

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

The graves were opened and bodies came out at that moment. They permanently were out of death, as they ascended to heaven on Sunday morning when Jesus ascended, and presented them as the firstfruits of being made alive. They would never return to the grave.

The point is that Jesus could have "just died" without the drama of the Cross, and His own people forcing the Romans to crucify an innocent man, even though Jesus did carry the sins of the world at that moment. To the Romans He was innocent. Even though Jesus carried all their sins as well. The Cross was the downfall of Jesus' own people. As they cried that His blood be on their hands and their children's hands.

My point is that the Cross was not the penal substitution. The judgment of stripes and beating prior to the Cross was the penal substitution. That was when sin was transferred onto Christ.

The serpent in the wilderness was not part of the understood perfect lamb substitution, nor a type. So the Cross was not a typical type of an alter, but an extra curse for His own people and their soon desolation.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

Isaiah like Daniel never even mentioned the Cross, but Jesus being cut off.

Isaiah claims it was the stripes or beating Jesus received that healed us.

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."

That process started in the Garden when Jesus started to sweat drops of blood.

The point of suffering was already placed on Jesus prior to the form of death, via a Roman Cross. Even Paul pointed out it was cursed to hang on a tree, not that the Cross was the substitute way to die.

The Cross was for that generation to realize how far they would go to cut off their own Messiah in total rejection.

To simply die and be cut off would have worked to fulfill the OT Scriptures. Now one can argue that Moses lifted up the serpent on a stake, but that was used by Jesus explaining to Nicodemus something new and different from the OT.

The argument could be made that only Adam needed to be punished for disobedience, as only by his disobedience, death happened. Had things worked out according to human theory, only Adam would need to be redeemed. Because no one seems to acknowledge that Adam physically died that day. They theorize with Satan, that Adam would not die, but in a "state of death" would eventually physically die. That is Satan deception on the church, and not sure when that deception took hold.

Adam and Eve did physically die that day. God took away their permanent incorruptible physical body, and gave them a body of death, that was corruptible with decay. So all were born after Noah into death, and were already dead. What Jesus finished was the power of that death, by physically dying, and bringing His body back to life again. And it was a Cross, because Jesus told Nicodemus it would be a Cross.

So the Lamb had already suffered the penalty of sin, even before the Cross. Being slain fulfilled the cut off part. Jesus then experienced death as all who have lived death. And that moment was when death was broken for all the OT redeemed. They experienced the resurrection of life from that moment on.

From that moment, it was finished, those redeemed in Christ would never taste death, nor would physical death be a death ending. The only state of death would be this current physical body they were born with.

It was not that a lamb had to die under the Law. It was that the sin of that person was transferred prior to death. So death was not transferred, the sin was transferred. The substitution was not in the death, because the sinner was already dead. The substitution was that the lamb took on that sin prior to death. Then the lamb had to die. Jesus had to experience death, but had already been the substitution for the sin.

From both the OT point and the NT point one can justify a separation from the Cross and the actual fulfillment of taking on the sin of the world. But most forget about the judgment prior to the Cross, and see the Cross as the only point of sin being carried.

Jesus also had to be cut off, as that is the only way God would also experience death itself. But the Cross was not the point of substitution. Humans are already dead, they don't have to die because of sin. That is what most do not take under consideration. The OT redeemed were made alive even before Jesus rose from the dead, ie was made alive.

That is why Matthew 27:52-53 sounds strange to us.

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

The graves were opened and bodies came out at that moment. They permanently were out of death, as they ascended to heaven on Sunday morning when Jesus ascended, and presented them as the firstfruits of being made alive. They would never return to the grave.

The point is that Jesus could have "just died" without the drama of the Cross, and His own people forcing the Romans to crucify an innocent man, even though Jesus did carry the sins of the world at that moment. To the Romans He was innocent. Even though Jesus carried all their sins as well. The Cross was the downfall of Jesus' own people. As they cried that His blood be on their hands and their children's hands.

My point is that the Cross was not the penal substitution. The judgment of stripes and beating prior to the Cross was the penal substitution. That was when sin was transferred onto Christ.

The serpent in the wilderness was not part of the understood perfect lamb substitution, nor a type. So the Cross was not a typical type of an alter, but an extra curse for His own people and their soon desolation.
I get the theory. My point is not that it is wrong (I believe it is wrong) but the reasons it is a theory.

Grudem rightly pointed out that nobody believed in what we call penal substitution until the Reformation. And he rightly pointed out that tge elements compiled by John Calvin were there before the Reformation.

I disagree with Grudem that the theory has any merit.

One "evidence" I think of is the fact that so many here see penal substitution clearly, throughout Scripture, while nobody before the Reformation did. That does not prove the theory itself wrong, but it is an interesting fact.

You see what is obvious to you, however it was foreign to Chriatianity and Chrustian scholars for over 1500 years.

Again, that doesn't make your theory incorrect.

BUT it does bring up the question as to why you (and so many) see it as a natural reading while for most of Christian history the idea was absent.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The reality of Christ receiving the wage of death is not theory. What you explained, I agree, often is . . .
Christ experiencing the wages of sin, which is death, and that for us, is not a theory. I agree.

It becomes theoretical when we introduce theories about it (like substitution, God punishing Jesus, this being forgiveness itself, etc.).

But on Scripture itself, yes - we do agree.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The reality of Christ receiving the wage of death is not theory. What you explained, I agree, often is . . .
Christ experiencing the wages of sin, which is death, and that for us, is not a theory. I agree.

It becomes theoretical when we introduce theories about it (like substitution, God punishing Jesus, this being forgiveness itself, etc.).

But on Scripture itself, yes - we do agree.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Substitution versus extra Biblical notions.
No. The Word of God itself ("what is written", the actual text of Scripture).

I believe that the Atonement is a foundation doctrine. It is a doctrine that we actually build upon. I also believe that foundation doctrines must be in the text of Scripture.

Penal Substitution is not in the text (in "what is written"). It is a product, as Wayne Grudem noted, of 1,500 years of theological development.

So what we have is the text of Scripture versus a theory about what is contained in the text.

I believe "what is written" is accurate and complete. You hold that a theory about what is written in the text of Scripture is the proper understanding.

We will never agree because our standards are different.

John Calvin's contribution to theology was nor Calvinism as we know it but the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement upo which Calvinism as we know it was built. I believe Calvin was wrong.
 
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