It was Anne Lotz

[AITB]

Originally posted by DHK:

It is a blessing to see a wife described like Sarah in 1Pet.3:1-6:

[...]

6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

I think I would feel nauseated to see a wife call her husband "lord", quite frankly.

In the world there are many corporations all having different rules. The church is God's corporation. We need to abide by His rules.


I think that would be great. That's why I don't understand the prevailing attitude in the church towards women which appears to be "I don't care whether you think God called you and gifted you to lead like I do - because I think it's impossible! So get over there and call your husband "lord" before we discipline you for ungodly behavior!"

That could be a totally carnal reaction. That could be entirely human prejudice and fear.

I'd like to see men saying to women "You believe God gifted you in that way - great! Let's try it then!"

Some men do.

I think they are the ones who understand this passage:

John 13:3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4 so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5 After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

When you know the truth you don't go around telling other people what they can't do. You - metaphorically "wash their feet". You are secure enough in yourself to bless other people by giving them the chance to actually do what they believe God called them to do. You trust God that He will honor your letting them do it. You understand that standing in the way of anyone's calling is a worse sin than someone trying something and coming to believe it's not His will. You let them come to their own conviction about God's will for them. You don't enforce your own opinions on them that you are allowed to do something and they aren't. (How convenient that "God's will as you perceive it"
lets you do what you believe you are called to do, but not them!)

I don't see a "foot-washing", "serve one another in love" (Gal 5) mentality prevailing much in our churches today. Unfortunately. If we did abide by God's rules I believe the church would look very different.

But, don't worry, because you'll probably be able to remain in the comfort of tradition and what men have done since the fall. "you WILL rule over her". Not a command but a prophecy. I believe. And it's still happening and who knows when men will have the courage to say "this is wrong" and change things.

I believe the Bible was never meant to be used to excuse sin and it was never meant to be used to stop women ministering as God calls and gifts them to. I believe it breaks God's heart every time it's used in those ways.

 

[Multimom]

I deleted this because I didn't read far encough and I don't have time to correct it. I'll come back later and re-post.

[ June 15, 2002, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Multimom ]

 

[Multimom]

I guess no one wanted to tackle my comments regarding who should teach "saved and unsaved" boys.

 

[AITB]

Multimom,

I could - but you already know what I think!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by AITB:
But, don't worry, because you'll probably be able to remain in the comfort of tradition and what men have done since the fall. "you WILL rule over her". Not a command but a prophecy. I believe. And it's still happening and who knows when men will have the courage to say "this is wrong" and change things.

It is both a prophecy and a command if you study Scripture enough. Paul commands the woman to be in submission to her husband. But it is not an easy thing either for the husband to so love his wife "even as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it." There is sacrifice on both parts.

As for a woman's calling, it just ain't so. A woman will never have a calling that goes against Scripture. God will never call a woman to teach men. Someone else called her; not God. She's confused. I had a woman once say to me: "God's called to me to critize preachers; he has given me that ministry." Poor deluded woman--doesn't go to church anywhere. She sits at home, somewhat of a recluse, and finds fault with most everyone. On the other hand I have seen God use some single woman missionaries in a tremendous way--some out of God's permissive will some in God's permissive will. In other words some are working in conjuction with a local church on a foreign mission field, perhaps in a medical facility--but all the time reaching out to others. Others have been greatly used of God throughout history inspite of this one area of disobedience. Perhaps God overlooking it, because to the disgrace of man, there was no man that was willing to do what some women have done. I am thinking of women such as Mary Slessor. But that still does not change God's Word. His commads remain the same.
DHK

[ June 15, 2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by DHK:
As for a woman's calling, it just ain't so.

"All things are possible with God"

A woman will never have a calling that goes against Scripture.

I don't think a calling to a woman to lead goes against the heart of what Scripture teaches.

(See below about the letter vs the Spirit)

God will never call a woman to teach men.

You can't know that unless you're God.

Someone else called her; not God. She's confused.

Maybe it's the people who think as you do who are confused...

2 Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as [being] from ourselves, but our sufficiency [is] from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit ; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

Are you sure you aren't falling under 'the letter kills' not 'the Spirit gives life'?

Where is the liberty in 'women can't lead'? Where is the freedom?

If you're wrong you and others are killing the ministry of women with your restrictions.

Do you think that could be a minor thing, to God?

I don't...if you are wrong, that is.

Who knows; only God knows.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

My "freedom" rests in obeying the Scriptures. A woman is not to usurp authority over the man. As far as I know, there was not a single female apostle. I do not feel slighted in the least for knowing my rightful place. (Tho'I do not call my husband of nearly 40yrs.'lord', sometimes I do say 'sir' to him We are to function in the role God intended & that is the greatest freedom of all!

 

[Miss Bobbie]

Amen, Granny!

 

[HankD]

It is my opinion that God in His infinite wisdom has given the most important role in the Church to women.

The teachers and leaders in the primary sunday school and children's church to lead these precious little ones into His sheepfold.

The men get the hardcases.

HankD

 

[AITB]

That's sweet of you Hank, but it reminds me of when my son went to school for the first time and my daughter didn't and I had to try to think of creative ways to make her think it was very cool that she got to go grocery shopping with me instead!

Somehow it worked. But she was only three...

I'm an adult and I know a restriction when I see one.

Men can teach children whenever they want. So it's not really true to say "Oh, God has given women this wonderful role..." as if He gave it just to them. It's more that men won't do it and women aren't allowed to do other stuff so they end up doing it.

Oh, sure, it's important, it's wonderful. I understand that.

But it doesn't justify women not being allowed to do what men are allowed to do; and it's not a role that God's word ever says men are not supposed to do, either...or, if I'm wrong about that, please show me the verses where it says that women are supposed to teach children and men aren't.

And anyway, when does a male child become too old for a woman to teach?

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Actually, this brings up the more reason why our little assembly don't do sunday school...Children need to be taught by both parents. [There are just some people I wouldn't want teaching my yunguns]. And the world is so crazy right now because people aren't following God's Word(KJV).

I'm not allowed to do what a Judge does, but I don't feel slighted. I'm not allowed to perform brain surgery, hey, I don't even like doctors! I can't throw a fast ball, but I don't begrudge the baseball players. I'm not allowed to do a lot of things...That's life; I accept it. But I CAN & DO follow the KJBible..."there is a narrow way that leads to life".

[ June 16, 2002, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: GrannyGumbo ]

 

[HankD]

I never said it was right or wrong that men couldn't/shouldn't teach children. Just observing what is the norm in the Baptist churches (and others) I've visited or have been a member.
I've assumed that is what God wants since it is so pervasive.

If it shouldn't be that way then let the men step forward and do the job, starting with those who believe it to be improper.

HankD

[ June 16, 2002, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by HankD:

I never said it was right or wrong that men couldn't/shouldn't teach children. Just observing what is the norm in the Baptist churches (and others) I've visited or have been a member.
I've assumed that is what God wants since it is so pervasive.

I'm really surprised to read that your only reason is 'everybody's doing it so I assumed it was right'. I thought you'd have a Biblical reason

I always want to know the Biblical basis for what's done at my church.

Yeah, I know, that could make me annoying. Well, I do begin by assuming there is a Biblical basis and try to find it myself and only ask if I'm really having trouble finding it. It's not as if I'm continually asking them "why are you doing this?" type questions!

If it shouldn't be that way then let the men step forward and do the job, starting with those who believe it to be improper.

Now that, I wholeheartedly agree with, if it's true that some think it's improper.

(Although I didn't say it is improper for women to do it, only that I see no Biblical reason to limit it to women.)

 

[DHK]

1Tim.2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I suppose the answer to your question, AITB, lies in the answer to: "At what age does a child become a man?"

Different churches have different interpretations of just when that happens. Perhaps it starts to take place once one turns a teen-ager and begins to assert his own independence. In our culture they are not considered adult quite that young. But in the end, the responsibility of exactly where to draw that line lies with each local church and their pastor.
DHK

 

[HankD]

Dear A,

You said,

I'm really surprised to read that your only reason is 'everybody's doing it so I assumed it was right'. I thought you'd have a Biblical reason

I always want to know the Biblical basis for what's done at my church.

You are correct, I offered no Scripture (although that doesn't necessarily mean I don't have one).
So, if you allow women to teach in any capacity (children included)in your church then please impart to me the Biblical basis you use.

HankD

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by HankD:
Dear A,

You said,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I'm really surprised to read that your only reason is 'everybody's doing it so I assumed it was right'. I thought you'd have a Biblical reason

I always want to know the Biblical basis for what's done at my church.

You are correct, I offered no Scripture (although that doesn't necessarily mean I don't have one).
So, if you allow women to teach in any capacity (children included)in your church then please impart to me the Biblical basis you use.

HankD</font>[/QUOTE]In my church women may teach children, as may any 'qualifed' adult (i.e. God has called and gifted them as recognized communally...)

Women don't teach men per se, according to the interpretation of 1 Tim that others have discussed on this thread.

This is one passage showing that God wants all of us to teach our children diligently, continually, consistently, fervently, etc...

Deut 6:6 And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 "You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 "You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 "You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates."

Does that help?

AITB

 

[Multimom]

Here's a tidbit of Baptist History.

If you want to find out what happens when men are placed in charge of a ministry to kids, do some research about what happened to Royal Ambassadors (RA's) when the Woman's Missionary Union (WMU) stopped administering the program and gave it over to Baptist Men.

Quick synopsis, it went down the drain so the WMU took back control. Unfortunately, it has been very hard to revitalize and repair what was damaged.

[ June 17, 2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Multimom ]

 

[HankD]

God will never call a woman to teach men.

You can't know that unless you're God.

You can if you can find it in His Word...

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly .

2 Kings 22: 14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they communed with her.
15 And she said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me, 16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

[ June 18, 2002, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[AITB]

Thanks, Hank!