37818
Well-Known Member
In John's gospel account, the 6th hour is Roman hours, not Hebrew hours, as used in Matthew, Mark and Luke. So the 6th hour is either,our 6 AM or 6 PM. John 19:14 was morning.
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It was not a Sabbath day
- Thread starter 37818
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37818
Well-Known Member
You are forgetting. You hold Mark 15:42 to be Friday afternoon and I am of the persuasion it is Thursday evening [after sundown].
37818
Well-Known Member
We disagree. I am of the persuasion Mark 12:12-16 was the Passover, the 14th, the day before He was crucified.
The typology in the scriptures is prophetic. The scriptures are full of types and is a very clear way of confirming the veracity of our doctrinal views. The OT was preparation for the NT. All the truths of the NT are hidden in the old and is revealed by the Holy Spirit, who lives in the believer.
Le 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Note: Jn 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
4These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
5In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Note: Leaven in scripture is a picture of sin and corruption. There was no corruption in the body of Jesus after his soul departed from it. Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
7In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
8But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
9And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
10Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Note: 1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
12And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
13And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
14And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
Note: Life on God's calendar takes place on the first day of the week after the sabbath. Pentecost (fifty) occurred on the day after 49 days or 7 sabbaths, which would have been on the first day of the week. This is determined by counting 50 days from the feast of Unleavened Bread.
17Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
18And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.
19Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
20And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.
21And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
22And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.
ranger: I am the LORD your God.
If the scriptures define the term "high day," I have not found it.
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I am not forgetting anything. The NT scriptures is a Jewish work and is written by Jews.
37818
Well-Known Member
37818
Well-Known Member
37818
Well-Known Member
LOL. You have Jesus crucified at midnight.
37818
Well-Known Member
No. Wrong on two counts. 30AD the Passover was on Wedensday. 33AD the Passover was on Friday.
Also per Mark 14:12-16 the Passover was the day before Jesus was crucified.
THE PROGRESSION OF TIME IN MARK 14
Mark 14:12
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
Mark 14:13-16 - Preparing the place to eat the Passover
13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
The Evening
17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. (The evening would be after 6)
27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night (same as evening): for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Same evening, same day, same night.
32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane:
Same evening, same day, same night.
43 And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.
Same evening, same day, same night.
53 And they led Jesus away to the high priest: and with him were assembled all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes.
Same evening, same day, same night.
72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.
Same day, but in the morning with a different inquisitor.
Mk 15:1
And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
Same morning
Mark 15:15
15 And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.
Same morning
Mark 15:25
25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
Same day
Mark 15:34
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
The same day
42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
The women
40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
The rest of Mark's story
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.
There were two different days in Mark 14 if one reckons the evening and the morning amounts to one day divided by 2, the evening and the morning.
All the events recorded by Mark from verse 14:17 would be on the day before the sabbath day, which is called in verse 42 the "preparation, the day before the Sabbath."
The next thing Mark records is in chapter 16:1. The second day after the events of chapter 14:17, which began in the evening and lasted all night and all day of day 6 until the evening of day 7, the Sabbath came, at which time the body of Jesus was already in the tomb.
And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
Ma 4:1-2
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Jesus Christ is the Morning Star.
Can there be any doubt that he arose at the rising of the sun on a new day?
37818
Well-Known Member
Mark 14:12-16, 14th
Mark 14:17, beginning of the 15th.
Mark 15:42, beginning of the 16th.
It is my understanding the 14th was Wedensday
The beginning of the 15th was Wedesday evening.
The beginning of the 16th was Thursday evening.
30AD, Calendar Converter
Mark 14:17, beginning of the 15th.
Mark 15:42, beginning of the 16th.
It is my understanding the 14th was Wedensday
The beginning of the 15th was Wedesday evening.
The beginning of the 16th was Thursday evening.
30AD, Calendar Converter
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
This discussion was Tuesday afternoon, prior to 6pm and is being considered and called, "the first day of unleavened bread", because it was "when they killed the passover", in order for the disciples to have time to kill and prepare the Passover supper they ate with Jesus, some think,
or "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover" has to be the same evening that "that thou mayest eat the passover", which would both be the evening after 6pm, which is the beginning of Wednesday, the Passover, day of preparation, and the day of Christ's crucifixion the next day, still on Wednesday.
12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
TUESDAY
Nisan 13
Jesus and the twelve disciples come into Jerusalem from Bethany, to partake of the Passover meal.
MAYBE TUESDAY, otherwise, WEDNESDAY after 6pm, TUESDAY.
John and Peter were sent ahead of time to locate the place of the meal and to make preparations for it (Mark 14.12-16).
Mark 14.17
WEDNESDAY
Jesus ate an early-evening Passover meal with His disciples. After the meal, the walks with His disciples towards the Mt. of Olives.
Passover is observed on the 14th of Nisan every year (Leviticus 23.5). Jesus and His disciples partook of the Passover in the early evening of the previous day, still Wednesday, the beginning of the Wednesday Passover, but our Tuesday night. (Days are calculated from sunset-to-sunset, not midnight-to-midnight.)
Gethsemane is at the foot of the Mount of Olives, not far from the brook Kidron, and takes its name from a cave there that contained an oil press — thus, Gat-Shmanim.
Jesus was betrayed by Judas at the olive grove in Gethsemane, arrested and brought before the high priest, Caiaphas.
Trial ends at daybreak.
Luke 23.44 shows that Jesus died around the ninth hour. He would have been buried before sunset because of the approaching Thursday Sabbath, for that Sabbath day was a high-day (John 19.31).
John 19.31 mentions that the day following Jesus' crucifixion was a high day as opposed to the weekly seventh-day Sabbath. TWO Sabbaths – first an annual Holy Day, on Thursday and then the regular weekly Sabbath, on Saturday – are mentioned in the Gospel accounts. Compare Mark 16.1 with Luke 23.56
THURSDAY
Thursday, The 15th of Nisan is the first Holy Day, high-day, or annual Sabbath of the 7-day festival of Unleavened Bread. It begins at sunset Wednesday on the 14th.
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This is very bad reasoning for the simple reason that scripture says it is” the” Sabbath. It is not “a” Sabbath.
It was the Sabbath that was an high day, not a high day that was a sabbath. There is a difference.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Making stuff up. The Biblical fact Mark 14:12-16 was Wedensday in 30AD.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I've seen those two considerations repeatedly.
According to the one guy, I am undoubtedly a false teacher for citing scripture references.
I knew you wouldn't accept the timing that would allow for killing the passover and make the and the Last Supper take place after 6pm Wednesday, the beginning of Wednesday Nison 14th.
THE DAY BEFORE THE HIGH DAY SABBATH — THE 14th DAY OF NISAN —
"THE PREPARATION DAY" — THE DAY OF THE CRUCIFIXION.
(Our Tuesday sunset to Wednesday sunset).
The plot of Judas Iscariot to betray the Lord.
Mt 26:14-16 Mk 14:10, Lk 11 22:1-6
The "preparation" for the last supper (*1).
Mt 26:17-19 Mk 14:12-16 Lk 22:7-13
"The even was come" (our Tuesday after sunset) when the plot for the betrayal was ripe for execution.
Mt 26:20 Mk 14:17
The last supper, commencing with the washing of the feet.
Jn 13:1-20
(*1) The words in Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 refer to "the first day of unleavened bread", which was the 14th day of Nisan, and therefore "the preparation day". That is why the Lord goes on to tell the two disciples to go and make preparation for the Passover.
37818
Well-Known Member
Your view seems to me to be confused.
It is my understanding, for 30AD, the 14th begins our Tuesday evening and ends Wednesday evening with the beginning of the 15th.
14th, Mark 14:12-16.
15th, Mark 14:17.
In Jesus' day, the whole feast was called the Passover, Luke 22:1.
Now every morning of the Passover, less the Passover 7th day Sabbath, was a Preperation, per Numbers 28:24 and Leviticus 23:8.
Matthew 26:1-2
1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Those who have followed this thread and have actually read my comments will know that I have tracked the chronicler of the six days before the Passover, Mark, which includes the first of the seven annual feasts of Israel that they had been practicing for 1500 years and ended with this one for these two days.
I showed Jesus going into the city and temple in the morning and leaving the temple and the City of Jerusalem in the evening of days 1 through 3. For those of you who have learned the ways of God will understand that Jesus left the temple for the last time, symbolic of his breaking his fellowship with his people Israel as a nation on day three. Remember, this is the same day that the disciples witnessed the fig tree was dried up as they entered the city that morning. The fig tree is one of three symbols of an aspect of Israel. The fig tree is the tree type of the nation.
Jesus used two chapters to give prophesy upon this people before he would have a national relationship again, which will include his temple and would serve as a throne where he would fulfill his own office as eternal priest making eternal intercession for his people who will have a restoration after two days of one thousand years each. The two days themselves stands as the two one thousand year days since then and now while Jesus has been absent and gentile nations have ruled over the world, including his people Israel, after their own will.
With Israel as the type, their national redemption will be accomplished after the two days, which will take God three days, day 6,7,and 8 to complete his redemptive purposes and eliminate both sin and sinners from the earth. The 7th day prophetically is the millennial day of 1000 years, when all the world is at rest, and the 8th day is the new creation and the eternal day of God.
Jesus said, “ My words are Spirit and they are life.” Jn 6:63
Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Here is what Mark said:
Mark 14:1-2
1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.
2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people.
Most of what is in the record of what Jesus said was on the third day (Tuesday) in the temple.
The pattern for the week of the days leading to the events of the cross is the seven days of creation.
The prophesy for the cursed nation of Israel for two thousand years is resurrection on the third day.
Hosea 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Those who have followed this thread and have actually read my comments will know that I have tracked the chronicler of the six days before the Passover, Mark, which includes the first of the seven annual feasts of Israel that they had been practicing for 1500 years and ended with this one for these two days.
I showed Jesus going into the city and temple in the morning and leaving the temple and the City of Jerusalem in the evening of days 1 through 3. For those of you who have learned the ways of God will understand that Jesus left the temple for the last time, symbolic of his breaking his fellowship with his people Israel as a nation on day three. Remember, this is the same day that the disciples witnessed the fig tree was dried up as they entered the city that morning. The fig tree is one of three symbols of an aspect of Israel. The fig tree is the tree type of the nation.
Jesus used two chapters to give prophesy upon this people before he would have a national relationship again, which will include his temple and would serve as a throne where he would fulfill his own office as eternal priest making eternal intercession for his people who will have a restoration after two days of one thousand years each. The two days themselves stands as the two one thousand year days since then and now while Jesus has been absent and gentile nations have ruled over the world, including his people Israel, after their own will.
With Israel as the type, their national redemption will be accomplished after the two days, which will take God three days, day 6,7,and 8 to complete his redemptive purposes and eliminate both sin and sinners from the earth. The 7th day prophetically is the millennial day of 1000 years, when all the world is at rest, and the 8th day is the new creation and the eternal day of God.
Jesus said, “ My words are Spirit and they are life.” Jn 6:63
Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Here is what Mark said:
Mark 14:1-2
1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.
2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people.
Most of what is in the record of what Jesus said was on the third day (Tuesday) in the temple.
The pattern for the week of the days leading to the events of the cross is the seven days of creation.
The prophesy for the cursed nation of Israel for two thousand years is resurrection on the third day.
Hosea 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
37818
Well-Known Member
None of that changes Mark 14:12 to the end of the book.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I see Wednesday as the preparation day for the Sabbath High Day on Thursday, in A.D. 31, based on the red lettering row of this chart at:
Passover dates 26-34 A
Then they say,
Passover on Wednesday is the only day of the week that works with all Biblical accounts of the crucifixion.
Yahshua was in the grave "three days and three nights" Matthew 12:40. From Wednesday just before sunset [even] to Saturday just before sunset [even] is three days and three nights.
The fact that the day following Yahshua's crucifixion was a Sabbath (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:52-54, & John 19:31) does not prove He was crucified on a Friday.
According to the Law of Moses, the day following Passover (which is also the first day of the feast of unleavened bread) is also, always a Sabbath day of rest to be observed like the 7th day weekly Sabbath no matter what day of the week it falls on.
(See Leviticus 23:4-8, Numbers 28:16-18, and take special notice of John 19:31 again. The Sabbath immediately following Yahshua's crucifixion was no ordinary Sabbath.)
Understanding that it was a Wednesday Passover and crucifixion also solves apparent conflicts in the Gospel records.
In Luke 23:55,56 it says that the women (Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James) went and prepared anointing spices and oils BEFORE the Sabbath.
In Mark 16:1 it says that they bought them AFTER the Sabbath!
The answer lies is in the fact that there are two different Sabbaths being referred to here.
The women both bought and prepared the spices on the same day.
The day of the week was Friday.
When Mark says they bought the spices AFTER the Sabbath, the Sabbath he is referring to was the special Thursday Sabbath ...the first day of unleavened bread that followed the day of Passover.
When Luke says they prepared the spices and then rested the Sabbath, the Sabbath he is referring to is Saturday ...the weekly Sabbath.
There is also proof found in Matthew 28:1 that there were two Sabbaths.
Most Bible translations render this word "Sabbath" in the singular because translators, believing the traditional Friday crucifixion scenario, couldn't make any sense of the fact that the Greek manuscripts all render this word in the plural.
This fact can be verified by anyone with a Greek interlinear translation or Greek lexicon. Matthew 28:1 therefore should read, "Now after the SABBATHS as the first day of the week began to dawn...".
Therefore, for all the records to add up it must be concluded that Yahshua was crucified on a Wednesday.
37818
Well-Known Member
We disagree. Mark 14:12-16 was the 14th.
Mark 14:17 was the 15th, not the high Passover Sabbath. Since first thing in that morning was a Passover preparation per Numbers 28:17-25, Leviticus 23:6-8, Deuteronomy 16:8. 7 days unleavened bread per Exodus 12:18. Not 8.