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Featured It's a matter of time. Time and Matter: Substantivalism vs Relationism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by humblethinker, Jul 18, 2012.

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  1. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    #21 HeirofSalvation, Jul 21, 2012
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  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    In the beginning...

    Eternity has no beginning or end.

    "In the beginning God created..." therefore has to be understood as

    In the beginning (of time) God (out of eternity) created...

    The creation of time was therefore His first act of creation.

    Out of it came the space-matter relationship and all life in six sidereal days as a result of a direct act of His will and word (Let there be...).

    the heavens - space
    and the earth - matter

    This of course is my opinion.

    And everybody is entitled to my opinion.



    HankD
     
    #22 HankD, Jul 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
  3. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    :thumbsup::wavey:
     
    #23 HeirofSalvation, Jul 21, 2012
  4. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Hank I don't believe that the creation is the beginning of time, but the beginning of the physical creation. The creation account is not about the creation of time, but the creation of everything physical. Time has always been since God has always been. If you notice in the account in Gen. time is counted the same way on the 1 day when there is no sun, stars and all in that is in the heavens as it is on the 6th day after everything is created. In other words on the first day when there was no sun for an earth to go around there was still time being counted. The evening and the morning was the first day.
    That means time has always been, and that He created only the system that we use to determined how to calculate that time, not time itself. Time is any period where someone or something exists. God has always been so time has always been. I would agree that the temporal counting or accounting for time may not have always been, but time has always been.
     
    #24 freeatlast, Jul 21, 2012
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  5. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    There was no Sun...but there was Light for "evening and morning"...The celestial bodies are being (incorrectly I think) suggested to be the measure of time itself...but they are for "signs and seasons" not so much the calculation of time itself.

    Unless time (or temporality) is thought to be somehow a fundamental property of God's essential being...it does not follow that simply because God exists that time exists. There seems to be some latent Platonism here....namely, that there are necessary things such as properties or time which exist and exist necessarily...I maintain only God exists necessarily.
     
    #25 HeirofSalvation, Jul 21, 2012
  6. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    OK please explain what is involved in no time?
     
    #26 freeatlast, Jul 21, 2012
  7. Cypress

    Cypress New Member

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    HT agrees with the premise that time is a property of Gods essential being. btw, so do I.
     
    #27 Cypress, Jul 21, 2012
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Not a problematic difference. You may very well be correct.

    I'm sure threre is much to be learned about our Father's creation that we will understand when we are with Him after the resurrection.

    For now we do the best we can to understand His glory as reflected in His creation.

    Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.​

    Psalm 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.​



    HankD
     
    #28 HankD, Jul 21, 2012
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  9. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    I haven't heard him say as much, but that would make sense. I don't agree with it, but that is valid enough IMO. I think it utterly non-sense to think that "time" would exist a se, which is basically the claim unless it were. It is a "Neo-Platonism" which I would wish to avoid more than anything. I couldn't stomach a belief in "time" as an ontologically real "thing" unless it WERE somehow a fundamental facet or property of God's being. You and HT are not in an altogether bad camp! Isaac Newton believed as you do. He posited a sort of "real" or "actual" time which was relegated to time as God experienced it, and a "relative" time as we humans do. I think he was wrong...but it isn't foolishness.
     
    #29 HeirofSalvation, Jul 21, 2012
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think the point is what do we xonsider as being eternal? Bible Says God is ONLY self existent being, ALL other things created by Him...

    IF Time existed eternally, so would space, so how can they also be created by Him for His use?

    Wouldn't he be seen thus as being bound and confined by thsoe concepts time/space etc then?
     
    #30 Yeshua1, Jul 21, 2012
  11. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Why do you relate space with time? How is there any relationship between the two as if one cannot exist without the other?
     
    #31 freeatlast, Jul 21, 2012
  12. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    #32 HeirofSalvation, Jul 24, 2012
  13. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    HoS, this verse you refer to compares one measure of duration to another measure of duration and what should follow in our understanding is that to an eternal or everlasting or ever enduring Being measured duration is insignificant. In the two things compared, the commonality is that there is duration and that it is the measure of the duration that is insignificant to the Eternal One, not that duration didn't exist for Him. There is no reason at all to use this verse to support a philosophical absurdity of an 'eternal now' with no possibility of duration. Do you really think the author of this proverb was trying to explain an 'eternal now' to his pupil?

    God's eternality is everlasting duration, duration is is in no way betrayed in these verses but yet are established as constants and the next verse adds the supportive idea that there is a past.
    This verse tells us that regardless of the measurement of the duration, when "it is past" then it is not retrievable (just like the night watch at the rising of the sun) except in the sense that it is a memory and duration has no ebbing effect on an eternal Being, that is, He can remember and recall all of the past regardless of the duration as though it were "yesterday". And, like the verse above, this verse in no way teaches a duration-less 'eternal now'. The pupil in now way would be expected to come to such a Platonic understanding. The two things compared ("thousand years" and a "day") are both measures of duration and the point was not that duration would somehow cease to exist.

    I had not seen these verses and I'm glad you presented them. Any more verses that you would like to use to support "timelessness" or an "eternal now"? I don't think they are there, the idea is at best a philosophical one not conceived in or revealed by scripture but it is surely read into it.

    Close enough, thanks. It is not a thing in the sense I think you mean though... It is a relation due to being (Consider, if you will, 'Parenthood'. Is it best described as a 'thing' created or as an inherent 'relation' between two things that just 'are'?). Can you elaborate on what happens when the Father relates in an action of love or giving glory to the Son or the Persons of the trinity dialog in this 'timeless' state of 'eternal now'? How is that explained? Would you say it is mystery? What is the evidence that it is 'mystery' because the evidence found in scripture and our experience supports that it is not mystery but instead 'absurdity'. Surely this "Timeless" "eternal now" does not bind God to be ever experiencing all of the evil of this world, and each evil event to be experienced in an ever present sensation for Him. It seems more reasonable to believe that yesterday's evil is no longer present, just like "yesterday is when it is past".

    Tell me, do you think an event can occur without matter existing? Does the Trinity experience events of love and glory? Jesus said that such happened before the creation. I see no reason to think that the Trinity did not experience events and nor do I see any reason to think that matter must exist for duration to exist, iow relation can exist without matter. For our experience in this universe they are bound together but prior to creation they were not. Duration and distance (time and space) only exist because of relation and due to relation they necessarily exist.

    I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, you just may convince me otherwise. Sometimes one can be surprised at the little thing that finally breaks the camel's back. I'm looking for it...
     
    #33 humblethinker, Jul 24, 2012
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    What did God create? was Time always there as a constant? time/Space/Matter/Energy are all interdependant upon each other...

    How can the Lord be eternal if there were ANY other "things' there apart from Himself BEFORE "In the beginning?"
     
    #34 Yeshua1, Jul 24, 2012
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