It's ALL from HIM!

[Luke2427]

I am not gonna let this gift horse pass me by. A chance to agree with you is precious. I agree with the above statement.:love2:

Excellent.

Then we understand that God ordained all things since they are all from him, such as the deception of men by the anti-Christ, the slaughter of God's Son, all calamities and catastrophes, all physical ailments of all people (deafness, blindness, muteness, etc...), the torment of Job, the horrible mistreatment of Joseph, and... the fall of man.

And we understand that God's motive for all tragedies is holy and noble (for example, the crucifixion of Christ) and therefore God is not evil in willing that evil be and that evil occurs, right?

 

[webdog]

Right, that's when we become children of god. We are not born that way. No one is born saved.

So someone can be elect and not a child of God?

 

[Cypress]

Excellent.

Then we understand that God ordained all things since they are all from him, such as the deception of men by the anti-Christ, the slaughter of God's Son, all calamities and catastrophes, all physical ailments of all people (deafness, blindness, muteness, etc...), the torment of Job, the horrible mistreatment of Joseph, and... the fall of man.

And we understand that God's motive for all tragedies is holy and noble (for example, the crucifixion of Christ) and therefore God is not evil in willing that evil be and that evil occurs, right?

Nope, dont agree with your interpretation of what Gods motives or mechanisms are.....only agree with what I said I agree with. Man was created and is now a creator of things,actions,thoughts....etc. I will tell you a bit about what I do think though. I do think that God is God enough, if you will, to give man have the capacity to do things that God doesn't desire,decree or ordain to happen in order to have creatures that can truly appreciate and relate to Him on a level beyond mere animals. I wish you had allowed our moment of agreement to linger. But I am glad I took you up on the fleeting opportunity:love2:

 

[Luke2427]

Nope, dont agree with your interpretation of what Gods motives or mechanisms are.....only agree with what I said I agree with. Man was created and is now a creator of things,actions,thoughts....etc. I will tell you a bit about what I do think though. I do think that God is God enough, if you will, to give man have the capacity to do things that God doesn't desire,decree or ordain to happen in order to have creatures that can truly appreciate and relate to Him on a level beyond mere animals. I wish you had allowed our moment of agreement to linger. But I am glad I took you up on the fleeting opportunity:love2:

So then you don't agree with the following?

Then we understand that God ordained all things since they are all from him, such as the deception of men by the anti-Christ, the slaughter of God's Son, all calamities and catastrophes, all physical ailments of all people (deafness, blindness, muteness, etc...), the torment of Job, the horrible mistreatment of Joseph, and... the fall of man.

 

[Cypress]

No, repeat,No, i don't agree with your statement because I don't agree with it as you understand it. Will ask you a question. If your great grand daughter commits murder, are you responsible for it? Forgot to mention that you were a miner and also mined the steel that the gun was made from. And your son was a business man that employed the murderess mother and paid her the salary that enabled her to buy the car that the murderess used to drive to the scene of the murder.
If you could really have seen that it would happen in the future, I could agree that you are responsible only as far as you could have prevented it by making other choices. Won't go as far as saying that you wanted it to happen or meant for it to happen. Only an analogy anyway.
An interesting document can be found here that more closely explains how I view your statement.
http://evangelicalarminians.org/files/c.s. lewis - calvinist or classical arminian.pdf
:love2:

 

[convicted1]

Right, that's when we become children of god. We are not born that way. No one is born saved.

So do babies that die in their infancy, those who were aborted from their mother's womb, those babies that were molested, maimed, murdered, are they destined for hell because they died before they confessed Christ IS Lord??

 

[convicted1]

God created us, this is how I see all people is His and He is the Father of all, until we followed the murderer from the beginning and believed him over God.

Jesus came into His own, they belonged to Him, but they received Him not.

So as Jesus say's that if you disown me, I will disown you.

I'd have to say I agree with all of this!! Well stated, Brother!! :thumbs: :thumbs:

Furthermore, they could "disown" Jesus, unless Jesus owned them first! You can't disown something that you didn't have to start with!! I really like this post you wrote here, Brother!! Again, BRAVO!!!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God created us, this is how I see all people is His and He is the Father of all, until we followed the murderer from the beginning and believed him over God.

Jesus came into His own, they belonged to Him, but they received Him not.

So as Jesus say's that if you disown me, I will disown you.

So from Scriptures then, we have two choices, We are either children of the Devil (john 8:44)

44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

or we are Children of The Sovereign Father of the Universe .... Right.

Romans 8:14-18

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[a] And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Titus 1:1-3

1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3 and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

 

[Luke2427]

No, repeat,No, i don't agree with your statement because I don't agree with it as you understand it. Will ask you a question. If your great grand daughter commits murder, are you responsible for it? Forgot to mention that you were a miner and also mined the steel that the gun was made from. And your son was a business man that employed the murderess mother and paid her the salary that enabled her to buy the car that the murderess used to drive to the scene of the murder.
If you could really have seen that it would happen in the future, I could agree that you are responsible only as far as you could have prevented it by making other choices. Won't go as far as saying that you wanted it to happen or meant for it to happen. Only an analogy anyway.
An interesting document can be found here that more closely explains how I view your statement.
http://evangelicalarminians.org/files/c.s. lewis - calvinist or classical arminian.pdf
:love2:

Because every example I enunciated in that post is DIRECTLY from the Bible. You do believe the Bible, right?

Because the Bible clearly says God causes ALL of those things.

God ordained that calamity and tragedy happen. The Word of God is clear.

God decreed the greatest sin that has ever been committed to take place exactly as it did- the crucifixion of Jesus.

God was the ultimate cause behind every ounce of Job's suffering.

God meant for Joseph to be thrown into the pit and sold into slavery.

This is what the Bible clearly teaches.

Do you not yield to the authority of Scripture?

 

[David Lamb]

So someone can be elect and not a child of God?

As I understand the bible, that would only be true if you added the word "yet" between "not" and "a child of God". The bible tells Christians, in Ephesians 1.4, that they were chosen/elect before the foundation of the world. But Paul says in Galatians 1.15-16 that Jesus Christ was revealed in him when it pleased God. Election is not concurrent with conversion nobody was converted "before the foundation of the world".

 

[Cypress]

Because every example I enunciated in that post is DIRECTLY from the Bible. You do believe the Bible, right?

Because the Bible clearly says God causes ALL of those things.

God ordained that calamity and tragedy happen. The Word of God is clear.

God decreed the greatest sin that has ever been committed to take place exactly as it did- the crucifixion of Jesus.

God was the ultimate cause behind every ounce of Job's suffering.

God meant for Joseph to be thrown into the pit and sold into slavery.

This is what the Bible clearly teaches.

Do you not yield to the authority of Scripture?

Yes, I think I do. When an interpretation of an individual passage or series does not square with the overall revelation of Gods character, then I reject that interpretation. So, I reject your interpretation.:love2:

 

[psalms109:31]

So from Scriptures then, we have two choices, We are either children of the Devil (john 8:44)

44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

or we are Children of The Sovereign Father of the Universe .... Right.

Romans 8:14-18

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[a] And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Titus 1:1-3

1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3 and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

I see there is those who are following the footsteps of the devil. Lying deceiving hindering those coming to the light because of this He said you are following your father the devil. Then you have the one's the devil is murdering. He would not be a murderer unless you have murdered someone.

As many as received Him, He gave the right to be called children of God.

I am not going to say we have choices, until we receive the word and what He has given to us to continue in your unbelief and be condemned or believe in His Son and be saved and only God can judge the intensions of the heart, but we have been given truth to determine who is His and who is not.

1 John 2

 

[Luke2427]

Yes, I think I do. When an interpretation of an individual passage or series does not square with the overall revelation of Gods character, then I reject that interpretation. So, I reject your interpretation.:love2:

I haven't done any interpretation. I have simply stated identically what the Scriptures state exactly as they state it.

That God meant for Joseph to be thrown into the pit and sold into slavery.

That God creates calamity.

That God ordained the most horrible sin in history- the murder of Jesus.

That God ordained the suffering of Job.

There is no interpretation there.

So do you deny the Scriptures or do you yield to them?

 

[Luke2427]

So do babies that die in their infancy, those who were aborted from their mother's womb, those babies that were molested, maimed, murdered, are they destined for hell because they died before they confessed Christ IS Lord??

I am afraid that many of us develop our doctrine based on our feelings rather than on faith in the Scripture.

This whole idea of babies not being sinners does not find its roots in the Bible, but in our emotions. We love babies. I have sired five myself.

We tend to not believe what we don't WANT to believe. So we take those powerful emotions to the Scriptures and are not at all objective.

Because the Bible is clear. All have sinned in Adam. There is none that doeth good. Christ is the only way to the Father for ANYBODY and when he said that he obviously meant through his blood. That fact alone is proof enough that ALL are sinners. If there is no sin then there is no need of blood. But his blood is necessary for ALL- adults and babies alike.

But I do believe that babies go to heaven. I cannot prove that, btw. But I believe it BECAUSE I am a Calvinist. I do not believe that God needs man's participation to save him. God can save babies without them doing a thing.

 

[Amy.G]

I am afraid that many of us develop our doctrine based on our feelings rather than on faith in the Scripture.

But I do believe that babies go to heaven. I cannot prove that, btw. But I believe it BECAUSE I am a Calvinist. I do not believe that God needs man's participation to save him. God can save babies without them doing a thing.

And you just proved that you base your doctrine on feelings (not scripture) as you accuse others of doing.

And I have no idea what being a Calvinist has to do with the belief that babies go to heaven.


Babies are not sinners. They are born under the penalty of sin because they are descendants of Adam. But they are not punished for another's sin, only their own. We all die physically because of Adam's sin in that he was banished from the tree of life. We also do not have access to the tree of life until we are with the Lord, therefore we live in corruptible flesh. But spiritually speaking, we do not die until we sin against God, the same way Adam sinned. Infants are not spiritually dead (separated from God).

 

[Luke2427]

And you just proved that you base your doctrine on feelings (not scripture) as you accuse others of doing.

And I have no idea what being a Calvinist has to do with the belief that babies go to heaven.

Here you go again.

I did not say my DOCTRINE is that babies go to heaven. That has nothing to do with my doctrine.

I simply proved that Calvinism gives babies a far better chance than your doctrine. God can save without participation on the part of the ones he saves in Calvinism.

In order for you to get babies into heaven in your theology you have to make it so that humans are born without sin. This goes against the entirety of Scripture.

 

[Amy.G]

I simply proved that Calvinism gives babies a far better chance than your doctrine. God can save without participation on the part of the ones he saves in Calvinism.

You didn't prove anything. Under Calvinism, babies might go to heaven, but only if God has elected them to do so. This is your doctrine. The only way out of it is to say that babies are saved some other way than the rest of us. The Bible does not speak of such a thing.

 

[Luke2427]

You didn't prove anything. Under Calvinism, babies might go to heaven, but only if God has elected them to do so. This is your doctrine. The only way out of it is to say that babies are saved some other way than the rest of us. The Bible does not speak of such a thing.

It doesn't have to. It doesn't speak against it. It doesn't say otherwise.

That's enough for it to be plausible. The fact of the matter is that your theology has to pervert major orthodox doctrines of the Christian faith, such as the universal sinfulness of man, that idea that all have sinned in Adam and need a Savior- your doctrine has to do this to get babies into heaven.

Mine does not. Mine says that God saves whomsoever he wills without need of their participation.

 

[Winman]

If salvation is 100% of God and man is not involved whatsoever, then why do you preach? And why do people need to hear your preaching?

Aren't you insulting God's sovereignty when you preach to people? Does God need your help? And why do people need to hear the preaching? Does God need their help?

If salvation is 100% of God and man is not involved at all, it seems to me you should not preach. You should simply wait for God to regenerate people.

 

[Amy.G]

It doesn't have to. It doesn't speak against it. It doesn't say otherwise.

That's enough for it to be plausible. The fact of the matter is that your theology has to pervert major orthodox doctrines of the Christian faith, such as the universal sinfulness of man, that idea that all have sinned in Adam and need a Savior- your doctrine has to do this to get babies into heaven.

Mine does not. Mine says that God saves whomsoever he wills without need of their participation.

No. What I believe is very orthodox among the Baptist faith. Babies are not held accountable for sin until they willfully sin against God. Baptists call this the age of accountability. You may not agree with it, but it is orthodox.