It's All Greek To Me?

[tyndale1946]

In a discussion I am having on this board titled Nuts For Arminians To Crack we were discussion the text Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated... There is no doubt as I understand scripture that it means just what it says... Though there is difference of opinion on that... One poster said that the greek word doesn't imply God really hated Esau... Never the less I still believe it does... Since I don't know Greek and there are brethren on here who do, is the same greek word the same in all cases... Or does the context determine the interpretation?... So TC and all you other Greek Scholars out there, help a brother out because It's all Greek to me?... Brother Glen

 

[TCassidy]

The word is εμισησα which means to hate or detest.

The passage is taken from Malachi 1:3 where the Hebrew word is שׂנאתי and also means to hate as you would hate an enemy.

In this case it would seem that the outcome of this "hate" is that God gave Esau an inferior allotment of land, and laid waste the dwelling-place of the Edomites by means of attacks by their enemies.

The problem is more one of interpretation than translation. Many see it to mean a comparative disregard.

I seriously doubt we will come to a consensus on this issue, as it has been argued for about 1700 years without resolve.

 

[tyndale1946]

The word is εμισησα which means to hate or detest.

The passage is taken from Malachi 1:3 where the Hebrew word is שׂנאתי and also means to hate as you would hate an enemy.

In this case it would seem that the outcome of this "hate" is that God gave Esau an inferior allotment of land, and laid waste the dwelling-place of the Edomites by means of attacks by their enemies.

The problem is more one of interpretation than translation. Many see it to mean a comparative disregard.

I seriously doubt we will come to a consensus on this issue, as it has been argued for about 1700 years without resolve.

I agree TC its been bantered around on the BB as long as I've been here but thanks for taking the time to answer my question... Brother Glen

 

[glad4mercy]

I agree with your post,

The word is εμισησα which means to hate or detest.

The passage is taken from Malachi 1:3 where the Hebrew word is שׂנאתי and also means to hate as you would hate an enemy.

In this case it would seem that the outcome of this "hate" is that God gave Esau an inferior allotment of land, and laid waste the dwelling-place of the Edomites by means of attacks by their enemies.

The problem is more one of interpretation than translation. Many see it to mean a comparative disregard.

I seriously doubt we will come to a consensus on this issue, as it has been argued for about 1700 years without resolve.

I agree with your post. But the punishment of Edom is mentioned along with the "hatred" of Esau. The point I want to make is that neither Edom's wickedness nor the resulting punishment was due to an preexisting, unconditional hatred of God towards Esau. Edom was laid waste because of their wickedness, not because hated them before Esau was born.

Now the fact that both Jacob and Esau were laid waste, but Jacob was raised up again, THAT has something to do with God loving Jacob and hating Esau.

Compare...

Malachi 1:4- Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever.

Malachi 3:6- 6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

 

[glad4mercy]

I agree with your post,


I agree with your post. But the punishment of Edom is mentioned along with the "hatred" of Esau. The point I want to make is that neither Edom's wickedness nor the resulting punishment was due to an preexisting, unconditional hatred of God towards Esau. Edom was laid waste because of their wickedness, not because hated them before Esau was born.

Now the fact that both Jacob and Esau were laid waste, but Jacob was raised up again, THAT has something to do with God loving Jacob and hating Esau.

Compare...

Malachi 1:4- Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever.

Malachi 3:6- 6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Also, the same Hebrew word is used in the following passages.

Genesis 29:31- And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, H8130 he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.

Genesis 29:33- And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated, H8130 he hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name Simeon.

 

[Jerome]

Luther judged it likely that in the end Esau was saved:

Luther's Works Vol. 6

 

[kyredneck]

Luther judged it likely that in the end Esau was saved:

Luther's Works Vol. 6

...yea, he didn't like the book of James either...

 

[Deacon]

In a discussion I am having on this board titled Nuts For Arminians To Crack we were discussion the text Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated... There is no doubt as I understand scripture that it means just what it says... Though there is difference of opinion on that... One poster said that the greek word doesn't imply God really hated Esau... Never the less I still believe it does... Since I don't know Greek and there are brethren on here who do, is the same greek word the same in all cases... Or does the context determine the interpretation?... So TC and all you other Greek Scholars out there, help a brother out because It's all Greek to me?... Brother Glen

I came across this quote in my reading this morning...

The ideal interpreter would be one who has entered
into that strange first-century world,
has felt its whole strangeness,
has sojourned in it until he has lived himself into it,
thinking and feeling as one of those to whom the Gospel first came;
and who will then return into our world,
and give to the truth he has discerned
a body out of the stuff of our own thought.
If there are other qualifications of which it is less fitting
to speak in an academic lecture,
I may be allowed to hint at them in a phrase familiar
to theologians—testimonium Spiritus Sancti internum.
C. H. Dodd, inaugural lecture at Cambridge, in F. W. Dillistone, C. H. Dodd: Interpreter of the New Testament​

The first step would be to step aside from the Calvinism/Arminian debate and examine the NT text and its OT source.
Many biblical texts center around common themes:

1) God's deity - his unlimited grace and judgement
2) Humanity - our diligence towards disobedience
3) Prosperity - God's promise of peace and joy​

In the text we see God's grace and judgement, and eventual prosperity in the multitude of interpretations of the words meanings.

Rob

 

[tyndale1946]

Luther judged it likely that in the end Esau was saved:

Luther's Works Vol. 6

You know brethren after considering my OP and seeing all the responses so far, it is all in Gods hands... I had no idea that I was opening a 1,700 year can of worms... The fact remains not only is Esau in Gods hands... We are ALL in Gods hands!... Interesting perspective Rob... Thoughts to consider as we pull back the ancient pages of biblical history... Brother Glen

 

[Yeshua1]

You know brethren after considering my OP and seeing all the responses so far, it is all in Gods hands... I had no idea that I was opening a 1,700 year can of worms... The fact remains not only is Esau in Gods hands... We are ALL in Gods hands!... Interesting perspective Rob... Thoughts to consider as we pull back the ancient pages of biblical history... Brother Glen

God hates in a way and fashion that NONE of us here can really relate to and understand, as His is based upon perfect understanding, non emotional, just due to Him being Holy and perfect in all of his attributes and ways!

 

[TCassidy]

You know brethren

The most difficult thing for us to know, and understand, is that God is much bigger than we are. He is able to love and hate the same person at the same time. We can't do that. One or the other of those emotions will dominate our feelings toward that person. So I am not at all bothered when I discover I lack the capacity to fully understand the breadth, and length, and depth, and height of God's infinite capacity to do that which I am incapable of.

 

[Yeshua1]

The most difficult thing for us to know, and understand, is that God is much bigger than we are. He is able to love and hate the same person at the same time. We can't do that. One or the other of those emotions will dominate our feelings toward that person. So I am not at all bothered when I discover I lack the capacity to fully understand the breadth, and length, and depth, and height of God's infinite capacity to do that which I am incapable of.

God is Holy, perfection in all of His attributes, and no created being can fully realize and understand what that really means!