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It's JUDGMENT TIME!!
- Thread starter Claudia_T
- Start date
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HOG: If I had meant that, I would have said that.
I meant exactly what I said: That it's the teaching of the Secular Humanists.
Now, this false teaching has invaded the pulpits of our churches, just as many false teachings have.
It's like a lie: You can spread a lie without being a liar.
Hi HOG: Thanks. That was comforting thought. I hate to inform you , but the greatest revival of religion this nation has ever seen was lead by men who believed that the soul and spirit as mentioned in Scripture were both used to denote the inner man, and could be used interchangeably, referring to the same thing. They were NOT secular humanists by any stretch of the imagination. That remark of yours is a paper duck put up for your own advantage. There is absolutely not even a resemblance between what I have said and the beliefs of a secular humanist, nor of multitudes of other believers that share my sentiments on that issue. If you desire to have a meaningful discussion, such utterly false comparisons would be best left unsaid.
HOG:Just how many more verses do you require? Lengthy lists of verses have been posted to show this separation.
Scriptures clearly show that the soul can be destroyed, yet the spirit saved. These verses have been posted. You choose to not see them.
HP: You have yet to show one solitary verse that clarifies the "nature of the distinction" you claim exists. Simply pointing to verses that the two words are mentioned, and then stating this proves they are defined by the meanings you give to each of them, is not proof. That is simply conjecture. I have said all along that IF any difference exists, God has not granted us the wisdom to be able to define it in any meaningful way. If you think you have a Scripture that defines either our spirit or our soul, and illuminates the distinct differences you believe are there, post it. If I missed any, please re-post it so we can examine it together. Do not just post a bunch of verses where the words are used. I am looking for clear scriptural definitions of the two words, one or two verses at a time please.
Define in your own words what the makeup of the soul is, then point to your evidence that states or supports that. Do the same for the word spirit.
HOG:Unless we're discussing the meaning or etymology of an English word, who cares what Webster's says? We're discussing what the Bible says, and it was not written in English originally.
HP: Obviously not you. Forgive me for trying to bring some reasonable authority on the English language into the picture. Possibly you would desire to show us in the original languages the definitions for the words soul and spirit? Be sure to mention all their uses, not just a select few that fit your argument. A little word study in the GK would do us all some good. Fair enough?
I meant exactly what I said: That it's the teaching of the Secular Humanists.
Now, this false teaching has invaded the pulpits of our churches, just as many false teachings have.
It's like a lie: You can spread a lie without being a liar.
Hi HOG: Thanks. That was comforting thought. I hate to inform you , but the greatest revival of religion this nation has ever seen was lead by men who believed that the soul and spirit as mentioned in Scripture were both used to denote the inner man, and could be used interchangeably, referring to the same thing. They were NOT secular humanists by any stretch of the imagination. That remark of yours is a paper duck put up for your own advantage. There is absolutely not even a resemblance between what I have said and the beliefs of a secular humanist, nor of multitudes of other believers that share my sentiments on that issue. If you desire to have a meaningful discussion, such utterly false comparisons would be best left unsaid.
HOG:Just how many more verses do you require? Lengthy lists of verses have been posted to show this separation.
Scriptures clearly show that the soul can be destroyed, yet the spirit saved. These verses have been posted. You choose to not see them.
HP: You have yet to show one solitary verse that clarifies the "nature of the distinction" you claim exists. Simply pointing to verses that the two words are mentioned, and then stating this proves they are defined by the meanings you give to each of them, is not proof. That is simply conjecture. I have said all along that IF any difference exists, God has not granted us the wisdom to be able to define it in any meaningful way. If you think you have a Scripture that defines either our spirit or our soul, and illuminates the distinct differences you believe are there, post it. If I missed any, please re-post it so we can examine it together. Do not just post a bunch of verses where the words are used. I am looking for clear scriptural definitions of the two words, one or two verses at a time please.
Define in your own words what the makeup of the soul is, then point to your evidence that states or supports that. Do the same for the word spirit.
HOG:Unless we're discussing the meaning or etymology of an English word, who cares what Webster's says? We're discussing what the Bible says, and it was not written in English originally.
HP: Obviously not you. Forgive me for trying to bring some reasonable authority on the English language into the picture. Possibly you would desire to show us in the original languages the definitions for the words soul and spirit? Be sure to mention all their uses, not just a select few that fit your argument. A little word study in the GK would do us all some good. Fair enough?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Here is some basic preliminary research I have done on the issue of the words soul and spirit. I have put the most part in my own words, with the exception being short parts of sentences in quotations. One needs to check it out for himself to see if in fact what I say is a reliable rendition of what was stated. I am open for critisism.
The word spirit in the OT is ‘ruah’ according to the Theological Wordbook of the OT, the word spirit is defined as, “Wind, breath, mind, spirit.” The word soul in the Hebrew is termed ‘nepesh’, and often rendered simply as self. When the flesh and the spirit combine it is said to form the ‘self’ or nepesh. It becomes obvious that where as the word soul depicts the combination of the breath of God, the spirit and the flesh, the word soul simply depicts that union. In this case the two words tend to overlap one another in meaning. Ex: Job 7:11, Isa. 26;9 Ex. 6:9 And Num. 21:4
It is also obvious that the word spirit in the OT has several meanings. It can depict a supernatural being sent from God, or Satan himself or other evil spirits. Satan is known as the great accusing spirit. Ruah can depict a strong wind or the breath of God. The word spirit may indicate nothing more than a mood or active power of God. It can be used to designate the intention of God. From the NT we gain that most often it can refer to the Holy Spirit of God. The word spirit can also refer to the entire consciousness of man lying within the realm of the immaterial. Isa. 26:9
The word spirit, or ruah, is said to consist of the mans’ eternal and cognizant mental phenomena, consisting of the reason, the will, and the conscience. The ruah grants to man his divine likeness. The end result is man’s napesh or soul as a proper recipient of ones personal life.
The GK word for spirit, according to Strongs, is pneuma. It is derived from a word that means “a current of air, i.e., breath.” By analogy or figurative it is “human, the rational soul.” It also is used to designate the “mind.”
I will stop there for a bit and wait and see if any see any correlation between the two words from what I have posted so far and to see if others find my study to be an accurate account of the two sources I used.
The word spirit in the OT is ‘ruah’ according to the Theological Wordbook of the OT, the word spirit is defined as, “Wind, breath, mind, spirit.” The word soul in the Hebrew is termed ‘nepesh’, and often rendered simply as self. When the flesh and the spirit combine it is said to form the ‘self’ or nepesh. It becomes obvious that where as the word soul depicts the combination of the breath of God, the spirit and the flesh, the word soul simply depicts that union. In this case the two words tend to overlap one another in meaning. Ex: Job 7:11, Isa. 26;9 Ex. 6:9 And Num. 21:4
It is also obvious that the word spirit in the OT has several meanings. It can depict a supernatural being sent from God, or Satan himself or other evil spirits. Satan is known as the great accusing spirit. Ruah can depict a strong wind or the breath of God. The word spirit may indicate nothing more than a mood or active power of God. It can be used to designate the intention of God. From the NT we gain that most often it can refer to the Holy Spirit of God. The word spirit can also refer to the entire consciousness of man lying within the realm of the immaterial. Isa. 26:9
The word spirit, or ruah, is said to consist of the mans’ eternal and cognizant mental phenomena, consisting of the reason, the will, and the conscience. The ruah grants to man his divine likeness. The end result is man’s napesh or soul as a proper recipient of ones personal life.
The GK word for spirit, according to Strongs, is pneuma. It is derived from a word that means “a current of air, i.e., breath.” By analogy or figurative it is “human, the rational soul.” It also is used to designate the “mind.”
I will stop there for a bit and wait and see if any see any correlation between the two words from what I have posted so far and to see if others find my study to be an accurate account of the two sources I used.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
De 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
HP: Now I have a question for JJ and anyone else that believes like him in that the spirit and soul cannot be speaking of the same essense based upon verses such as this which specifically have two different words for both soul and body. This, they say, proves that the one cannot consist of the other and vice versa.
Following that logic, we see two other distinct words in these verses as well. We see the word ‘body’ and we see the word ‘might.’ Now what I would like to know is, due to both of these words being distinctly different, can we rightfully assume that they cannot be part of or be related to either the soul or the spirit? Must the ‘body’ and ones ‘might’ be of an entirely different nature that ones soul or spirit, or can the words be depicting ideas consistent with, related to, or overlapping either one or the other? Why or why not?
1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
HP: Now I have a question for JJ and anyone else that believes like him in that the spirit and soul cannot be speaking of the same essense based upon verses such as this which specifically have two different words for both soul and body. This, they say, proves that the one cannot consist of the other and vice versa.
Following that logic, we see two other distinct words in these verses as well. We see the word ‘body’ and we see the word ‘might.’ Now what I would like to know is, due to both of these words being distinctly different, can we rightfully assume that they cannot be part of or be related to either the soul or the spirit? Must the ‘body’ and ones ‘might’ be of an entirely different nature that ones soul or spirit, or can the words be depicting ideas consistent with, related to, or overlapping either one or the other? Why or why not?
DeafPosttrib
New Member
I would like to discuss on body, soul, and spirit.
The Bible teaching us about them. Everyone can easy see people's body. Because they are visible and physical. Also, Bible saying, body means flesh.
Now, the Bible talks about soul. I heard many pastors saying that we can see our soul, over whole our body is soul. Body is soul? Also, there is other mean of soul, it means person.
Notice there are three parts - spirit, soul, and body. Why three parts? I believe God's puprose is to show us of the three parts are like as 'trinity'.
Of course, the word, 'trinity' is not find in the Bible.
We do not see soul in our body. Many people think soul is same mean as spirit. Well, they might be correct saying.
Spirit is most important part of our life. Also, it is a mystery to us. Because, spirit is invisible, we cannot see spirit.
Bible mentioned spirit lot.
We do not see spirit & soul. But, we have to believe what the Bible saying so. That is the faith.
I believe spirit is the purpose to leading us, where our destiny will be after we die- heaven or hell.
Many people who died, we can see their body as, carcass in visible and physical. But we cannot see their soul & spirit.
Many people have hard time to believe and accept the fact what the Bible actual teaching about our spirit beyond our death, where our spirit will go. It is a mystery to us.
The only way we can understand about body, soul, and spirit. To focus on Jesus Christ of his death, buried, and resurrection. This is the gospel. At first, Christ was born in flesh. When Christ was on the cross. He said, 'It is finished', then, his spirit departed from his body (Matt. 27:50; Mark 15:37; Luke 23:46; and John 19:30). I believe Christ's spirit went down to hell in Ephesians 4:8-10, for the purpose, Christ brought Old Testament saints out of Abraham's bosom of Luke 16:19-31 before his resurrection. And I believe Christ did brought "key" to bring saints out of the bottom of the earth to defeat satan of Revelation 1:18; and 20:1. "Key" is not a literal thing, but symbol meaning have authority or power over.
When after Christ risen from the death. Christ was not yet ascend back to heaven to sit with His Father. Shortly after his resurrection, Mary came to see his tomb. Christ appeared to her. She was about to touch Christ. Christ told her, do not touch his body. He said to her, he is not yet ascend to his Father, and not yet glorify.
Ironic, during 40 days follow Christ's resurrection. Christ did asked Timothy to touch his hands, which was piecred by nails. No, question, Christ's body was literal and physical when he was appear to his disciples in the room. Also, other day, the disciples were in the room, chatting each other, suddenly Christ appeared to them by through the wall. They were shocked of him, because he didn't open the door to entering the room. Obivously, Christ showed them, that he havd body, soul, and spirit all together into one.
After 40th day of his resurrection past, Christ gave the great commission to his disciples at Mt. Olivet of Acts 1:8. Then, Christ ascended up through the sky. They was shocked and unbelieveable. I BELIEVE Christ was actual flying up without ask his angel to bring him up. He doesn't have his own wings with him. We have to understand that Christ is God 100%. He shew his disciples and 500 people, that he is alive and God.
Now, let's discuss about 'spirit'. When a person dies, I believe person's body is remain right here on earth either in the room or in the grave. When a person dies, then immediately person's spirit depart from body. Person's spirit going to either two destiny places - hell or heaven.
It is a mystery to us. But we have to believe what the Bible saying. That is the FAITH.
Many people like athiests and Claudia T. do not believe in life beyond death like as suffering in hell in physical. They believe when once a person dies, then person's life is finished(destroyed), no exist beyond life. Even SOME Christians like Claudia believe unbelievers, who died, their body, soul, and spirit, all are destroyed completed, no more exist beyond death. That is called, annihilation. It is a false belief or teaching. Because they deny God's Word teaching us that, there shall have life beyond death.
Luke 16:19-31 is a powerful proof passage to prove annihilation is wrong. Some saying this passage is just a parable. Parable? Does Christ was actual saying 'parable' in this context of the passage?? Silence. Christ could had saying, 'parable' in this passage, if he wants to. But, he didn't saying it. Why? Because Christ uses two LITERAL names of two persons - Lazarus, and Abraham. No doubt, this passage was a real exist event. Also, Christ could had named rich man's name, if he wants to. But, he rathers not. Why? I believe Christ's reason of not use rich man's name, because, if suppose He tells of rich man's name, for sure many Jews and Pharisees might be shocked and very panic, or probably, they might make laughing at Christ's story, think that his story is not true, but just a fairy.
A rich man begged Abraham, told him, please send his agent from the hell, to warn to his five brothers, who are still alive, do not come down to hell with torment. But, Abraham told him, no, because they already hear the messages from prophets and Torah(Old Testament books) about hell. No excuse for them to know better than that. Not necesscary for being send a agent from hell to warning to alive person about hell. Because, the Bible already answers everything right there. They have to believe it with faith.
Luke 16:19-31 is very clear teaching against annihilation. Because Christ said, that a rich man LIFTED UP HIS EYES, being painful with torment, a rich man said, "Have mercy on me...he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; FOR I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME." - Luke 16:23-24.
No, there is no "sleep" or "no existed" beyond death according what annihilation teaching. Bible clears teaching us, there will be real life and existed beyond death.
I believe the true story of Luke 16:19-31 deals with their soul & spirit beyond their death, while their literal bodies still remain in the graves same time. Even today, rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham's their body are STILL buried somewhere in area of Israel or in Middle East.
Today, a rich man is STILL tormenting in the hell right now. He have been tormenting in hell for over 2,000 years since Christ's period on earth as what he told to Pharisees. A rich man is NOT sleep or destroyed. He is still existing in hell right now.
One more verse talking about spirit, I want to show you before closing of this post. I want to show you of 'spirit' in 1 Corinthians 5:5. It says, "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Christ tells us, we do not be fear of anyone who kill our body, but cannot destroy our soul, rather fear the Lord, who is able to destroy both soul and body. (Matt. 10:28) Satan can destroy our body, if he wants to. But, one thing that, Satan cannot destroy our soul. Even, also, he cannot destroy our spirit too.
I better stop typing this post. Because this post is already long. So, I better break this into part two to continue discuss deep on 'soul' & 'spirit' in the next post.
I want to discuss 1 Cor. 5:5b - "..that the spirit may be SAVED in the DAY of the Lord Jesus." what this verse meaning to us in the next post.
To be Continued.....
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
The Bible teaching us about them. Everyone can easy see people's body. Because they are visible and physical. Also, Bible saying, body means flesh.
Now, the Bible talks about soul. I heard many pastors saying that we can see our soul, over whole our body is soul. Body is soul? Also, there is other mean of soul, it means person.
Notice there are three parts - spirit, soul, and body. Why three parts? I believe God's puprose is to show us of the three parts are like as 'trinity'.
Of course, the word, 'trinity' is not find in the Bible.
We do not see soul in our body. Many people think soul is same mean as spirit. Well, they might be correct saying.
Spirit is most important part of our life. Also, it is a mystery to us. Because, spirit is invisible, we cannot see spirit.
Bible mentioned spirit lot.
We do not see spirit & soul. But, we have to believe what the Bible saying so. That is the faith.
I believe spirit is the purpose to leading us, where our destiny will be after we die- heaven or hell.
Many people who died, we can see their body as, carcass in visible and physical. But we cannot see their soul & spirit.
Many people have hard time to believe and accept the fact what the Bible actual teaching about our spirit beyond our death, where our spirit will go. It is a mystery to us.
The only way we can understand about body, soul, and spirit. To focus on Jesus Christ of his death, buried, and resurrection. This is the gospel. At first, Christ was born in flesh. When Christ was on the cross. He said, 'It is finished', then, his spirit departed from his body (Matt. 27:50; Mark 15:37; Luke 23:46; and John 19:30). I believe Christ's spirit went down to hell in Ephesians 4:8-10, for the purpose, Christ brought Old Testament saints out of Abraham's bosom of Luke 16:19-31 before his resurrection. And I believe Christ did brought "key" to bring saints out of the bottom of the earth to defeat satan of Revelation 1:18; and 20:1. "Key" is not a literal thing, but symbol meaning have authority or power over.
When after Christ risen from the death. Christ was not yet ascend back to heaven to sit with His Father. Shortly after his resurrection, Mary came to see his tomb. Christ appeared to her. She was about to touch Christ. Christ told her, do not touch his body. He said to her, he is not yet ascend to his Father, and not yet glorify.
Ironic, during 40 days follow Christ's resurrection. Christ did asked Timothy to touch his hands, which was piecred by nails. No, question, Christ's body was literal and physical when he was appear to his disciples in the room. Also, other day, the disciples were in the room, chatting each other, suddenly Christ appeared to them by through the wall. They were shocked of him, because he didn't open the door to entering the room. Obivously, Christ showed them, that he havd body, soul, and spirit all together into one.
After 40th day of his resurrection past, Christ gave the great commission to his disciples at Mt. Olivet of Acts 1:8. Then, Christ ascended up through the sky. They was shocked and unbelieveable. I BELIEVE Christ was actual flying up without ask his angel to bring him up. He doesn't have his own wings with him. We have to understand that Christ is God 100%. He shew his disciples and 500 people, that he is alive and God.
Now, let's discuss about 'spirit'. When a person dies, I believe person's body is remain right here on earth either in the room or in the grave. When a person dies, then immediately person's spirit depart from body. Person's spirit going to either two destiny places - hell or heaven.
It is a mystery to us. But we have to believe what the Bible saying. That is the FAITH.
Many people like athiests and Claudia T. do not believe in life beyond death like as suffering in hell in physical. They believe when once a person dies, then person's life is finished(destroyed), no exist beyond life. Even SOME Christians like Claudia believe unbelievers, who died, their body, soul, and spirit, all are destroyed completed, no more exist beyond death. That is called, annihilation. It is a false belief or teaching. Because they deny God's Word teaching us that, there shall have life beyond death.
Luke 16:19-31 is a powerful proof passage to prove annihilation is wrong. Some saying this passage is just a parable. Parable? Does Christ was actual saying 'parable' in this context of the passage?? Silence. Christ could had saying, 'parable' in this passage, if he wants to. But, he didn't saying it. Why? Because Christ uses two LITERAL names of two persons - Lazarus, and Abraham. No doubt, this passage was a real exist event. Also, Christ could had named rich man's name, if he wants to. But, he rathers not. Why? I believe Christ's reason of not use rich man's name, because, if suppose He tells of rich man's name, for sure many Jews and Pharisees might be shocked and very panic, or probably, they might make laughing at Christ's story, think that his story is not true, but just a fairy.
A rich man begged Abraham, told him, please send his agent from the hell, to warn to his five brothers, who are still alive, do not come down to hell with torment. But, Abraham told him, no, because they already hear the messages from prophets and Torah(Old Testament books) about hell. No excuse for them to know better than that. Not necesscary for being send a agent from hell to warning to alive person about hell. Because, the Bible already answers everything right there. They have to believe it with faith.
Luke 16:19-31 is very clear teaching against annihilation. Because Christ said, that a rich man LIFTED UP HIS EYES, being painful with torment, a rich man said, "Have mercy on me...he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; FOR I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME." - Luke 16:23-24.
No, there is no "sleep" or "no existed" beyond death according what annihilation teaching. Bible clears teaching us, there will be real life and existed beyond death.
I believe the true story of Luke 16:19-31 deals with their soul & spirit beyond their death, while their literal bodies still remain in the graves same time. Even today, rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham's their body are STILL buried somewhere in area of Israel or in Middle East.
Today, a rich man is STILL tormenting in the hell right now. He have been tormenting in hell for over 2,000 years since Christ's period on earth as what he told to Pharisees. A rich man is NOT sleep or destroyed. He is still existing in hell right now.
One more verse talking about spirit, I want to show you before closing of this post. I want to show you of 'spirit' in 1 Corinthians 5:5. It says, "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Christ tells us, we do not be fear of anyone who kill our body, but cannot destroy our soul, rather fear the Lord, who is able to destroy both soul and body. (Matt. 10:28) Satan can destroy our body, if he wants to. But, one thing that, Satan cannot destroy our soul. Even, also, he cannot destroy our spirit too.
I better stop typing this post. Because this post is already long. So, I better break this into part two to continue discuss deep on 'soul' & 'spirit' in the next post.
I want to discuss 1 Cor. 5:5b - "..that the spirit may be SAVED in the DAY of the Lord Jesus." what this verse meaning to us in the next post.
To be Continued.....
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Let's continued...
1 Corinthians 5:5b "...that the spirit MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY of the Lord Jesus." It reminds me of Eph. 1:13,14; 4:30; Luke 21:28; and Romans 8:19-23.
Securists use Eph. 1:13 for the proof of security salvation by use word, 'sealed', they telling us, when we believed and accept Christ, then the Holy Spirit came into our heart, and he sealed us, no one can take us till rapture prove that we cannot lose our salvation.
They saying, Holy Spirit will never leaving us when after we accept Christ, we are already saved, no matter how many sins we commited, we remain always saved long as the Holy Spirit sealed in us till rapture or die.
I want to start discuss on Ephesians 1:13-14 first.
Ephesians 1:13 - "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
Pause this for a while.
Securists saying of this verse telling us, when once after you believed and accepted Christ at our salvation, then the Holy Spirit comes into our heart, and we are sealed, that means we are already automatically saved at onced.
They use word, 'sealed' of Eph. 1:13, they defining this word means, confirmed, already settled. Many securists use illustrations for 'sealed'. Let me telling you as my idea what they use illustrations on sealed, what it means.
At the farm, a farmer owns 15 pigs in the fence. Farmer put hot rod of iron sealed on pigs' hip or feet use for I.D.'s. One day, a farmer comes to the pigs' den, and he counting them, he discovers there is a missing pig. So, he called to Police. Policemen come to the farm, and meet the farmer. The farmer gives missing pig's exactly I.D. number to them. So, the Police is looking for find missing pig's I.D. number somewhere places. The follow next day, Police find missing pig's I.D. number the exactly number, which a farmer given it to them. They return it to farmer. The thief, who steals pig, cannot removed pig's I.D. number in its' feet, because it already sealed. So, it is same idea as it is prove of security salvation, that we cannot lose our salvation because of the Holy Spirit already sealed in us at salvation.
That is what many baptists teaching security salvation today by use Eph. 1:13 as the proof of security salvation.
I realized that, many baptists are misunderstanding what Ephesians 1:13 actual talking about.
Let's discuss on the defintion of 'sealed' in Greek dictionary. Let's look in STRONG'S for Greek dictionary of 'sealed'. In Greek #4972 of 'sealed', it says, 'to stamp or mark for security or preservation, to keep secert, to attest, to seal up'.
Another dictionary - 'The Complete Word Study Dictionary' by Zodhiates. It is very good Greek dictionary because of stretching defining the meaning of word.
It defines of 'sealed', "to seal, close up and make fast with a seal signet such as letters or books so that they may not be read....Generally, to seal or set a seal for the sake of security upon a sepulcher, prison, with the acc.....(Figuratively)- to secure to someone, make sure, deliver over safely..."
Understand, Zodhiates is Assembly of God, he believes in security salvation doctine same as baptists believe.
What about 1828 Webster Dictionary?
I have 1828 Webster Dictionary(book) with me. It defines 'seal' with a long lists of meanings. Understand, his defining of these words with meanings in his time in year 1828 is much different today's, because of education & philosohy are changing lately.
I notice Webster's defining of seal is pretty long. I don't have to type or quote his defining from the book. But, I like to quote shorter defintion of his: "the wax set to an instrument, and impressed or stamped with a seal.....The wax or wafer that makes fast a letter or other paper. Any act of confirmation. That which confirms, ratifies or makes stable; assurance......To keep secert. To mark as one's property, and secure from danger.
Next word of Webster's Dictionary - 'sealed'. It says, "Furnished with a seal; fastened with a seal; confirmed; closed.
I think both Zodhiates and Webster defining 'sealed', seem more clear than STRONG'S.
You think I am seem have hard time to accept what Eph. 1:13 saying to support security salvation doctrine?
Nope. I have no problem with Eph. 1:13, my understanding of Eph. 1:13 differently as what baptists intepreting it.
Before I explaining Eph. 1:13. FIrst, let's look at next verse 14, it says,
"Which(verse 13b) is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
I would like to discuss on word, 'earnest'. It means, a pledge, paid.
STRONG'S - Greek # 728, : " a pledge, i.e. of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest."
Zodhiates- "a pledge, something which stands for part of the price and paid beforehand to confirm the transaction. Used in the NT only in a figurative sense and spoken of the Holy Spirit which God has given to believers in this present life to assure them of their future and eternal inheritance(2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:14)."
1828 Webster- " (I pick shorter of his defining the word)Intent; fixed....Thus the earnest of the spirit is given to saints, as a pledge or assurance of their future enjoyment of God's presence and favor."
I think STRONG'S and Zodhiates both defining earnest more clear than Webster.
Ok. Let's discuss on Eph. 1:13-14.
Securists teaching of Eph. 1:13-14, they saying when we accepted Christ and saved, then the Holy Spirit come into our heart, and it sealed us, because the blood of Christ already paid all our sins at once, so we are sealed until rapture, prove it that we cannot lose salvation, which is support the doctrine of security salvation or 'Perservance of the Saints'(Calvinism's one of the five points).
I disagree with security salvation doctrine and Calvinism's 'Perservance of the saints'.
First of all, I do believe in the perservance of the saints according what the Bible saying. Understand I understand differently on perservance of the saints as what calvinists believe.
Better start with 2 Timothy 1:12 "For the which cause cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persauded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."
This verse teaches us, God is able to perserve or keep us till rapture.
I do not deny the teaching of the perservance of the saints according what the Bible saying. I am 100% agree with Eph. 1:13,14; and 2 Tim. 1:12.
This post of the part two is already very long. I better stop typing this post. And I am going to make another post on part three on 'spirit' .
To be continued...
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
1 Corinthians 5:5b "...that the spirit MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY of the Lord Jesus." It reminds me of Eph. 1:13,14; 4:30; Luke 21:28; and Romans 8:19-23.
Securists use Eph. 1:13 for the proof of security salvation by use word, 'sealed', they telling us, when we believed and accept Christ, then the Holy Spirit came into our heart, and he sealed us, no one can take us till rapture prove that we cannot lose our salvation.
They saying, Holy Spirit will never leaving us when after we accept Christ, we are already saved, no matter how many sins we commited, we remain always saved long as the Holy Spirit sealed in us till rapture or die.
I want to start discuss on Ephesians 1:13-14 first.
Ephesians 1:13 - "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
Pause this for a while.
Securists saying of this verse telling us, when once after you believed and accepted Christ at our salvation, then the Holy Spirit comes into our heart, and we are sealed, that means we are already automatically saved at onced.
They use word, 'sealed' of Eph. 1:13, they defining this word means, confirmed, already settled. Many securists use illustrations for 'sealed'. Let me telling you as my idea what they use illustrations on sealed, what it means.
At the farm, a farmer owns 15 pigs in the fence. Farmer put hot rod of iron sealed on pigs' hip or feet use for I.D.'s. One day, a farmer comes to the pigs' den, and he counting them, he discovers there is a missing pig. So, he called to Police. Policemen come to the farm, and meet the farmer. The farmer gives missing pig's exactly I.D. number to them. So, the Police is looking for find missing pig's I.D. number somewhere places. The follow next day, Police find missing pig's I.D. number the exactly number, which a farmer given it to them. They return it to farmer. The thief, who steals pig, cannot removed pig's I.D. number in its' feet, because it already sealed. So, it is same idea as it is prove of security salvation, that we cannot lose our salvation because of the Holy Spirit already sealed in us at salvation.
That is what many baptists teaching security salvation today by use Eph. 1:13 as the proof of security salvation.
I realized that, many baptists are misunderstanding what Ephesians 1:13 actual talking about.
Let's discuss on the defintion of 'sealed' in Greek dictionary. Let's look in STRONG'S for Greek dictionary of 'sealed'. In Greek #4972 of 'sealed', it says, 'to stamp or mark for security or preservation, to keep secert, to attest, to seal up'.
Another dictionary - 'The Complete Word Study Dictionary' by Zodhiates. It is very good Greek dictionary because of stretching defining the meaning of word.
It defines of 'sealed', "to seal, close up and make fast with a seal signet such as letters or books so that they may not be read....Generally, to seal or set a seal for the sake of security upon a sepulcher, prison, with the acc.....(Figuratively)- to secure to someone, make sure, deliver over safely..."
Understand, Zodhiates is Assembly of God, he believes in security salvation doctine same as baptists believe.
What about 1828 Webster Dictionary?
I have 1828 Webster Dictionary(book) with me. It defines 'seal' with a long lists of meanings. Understand, his defining of these words with meanings in his time in year 1828 is much different today's, because of education & philosohy are changing lately.
I notice Webster's defining of seal is pretty long. I don't have to type or quote his defining from the book. But, I like to quote shorter defintion of his: "the wax set to an instrument, and impressed or stamped with a seal.....The wax or wafer that makes fast a letter or other paper. Any act of confirmation. That which confirms, ratifies or makes stable; assurance......To keep secert. To mark as one's property, and secure from danger.
Next word of Webster's Dictionary - 'sealed'. It says, "Furnished with a seal; fastened with a seal; confirmed; closed.
I think both Zodhiates and Webster defining 'sealed', seem more clear than STRONG'S.
You think I am seem have hard time to accept what Eph. 1:13 saying to support security salvation doctrine?
Nope. I have no problem with Eph. 1:13, my understanding of Eph. 1:13 differently as what baptists intepreting it.
Before I explaining Eph. 1:13. FIrst, let's look at next verse 14, it says,
"Which(verse 13b) is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
I would like to discuss on word, 'earnest'. It means, a pledge, paid.
STRONG'S - Greek # 728, : " a pledge, i.e. of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest."
Zodhiates- "a pledge, something which stands for part of the price and paid beforehand to confirm the transaction. Used in the NT only in a figurative sense and spoken of the Holy Spirit which God has given to believers in this present life to assure them of their future and eternal inheritance(2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:14)."
1828 Webster- " (I pick shorter of his defining the word)Intent; fixed....Thus the earnest of the spirit is given to saints, as a pledge or assurance of their future enjoyment of God's presence and favor."
I think STRONG'S and Zodhiates both defining earnest more clear than Webster.
Ok. Let's discuss on Eph. 1:13-14.
Securists teaching of Eph. 1:13-14, they saying when we accepted Christ and saved, then the Holy Spirit come into our heart, and it sealed us, because the blood of Christ already paid all our sins at once, so we are sealed until rapture, prove it that we cannot lose salvation, which is support the doctrine of security salvation or 'Perservance of the Saints'(Calvinism's one of the five points).
I disagree with security salvation doctrine and Calvinism's 'Perservance of the saints'.
First of all, I do believe in the perservance of the saints according what the Bible saying. Understand I understand differently on perservance of the saints as what calvinists believe.
Better start with 2 Timothy 1:12 "For the which cause cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persauded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."
This verse teaches us, God is able to perserve or keep us till rapture.
I do not deny the teaching of the perservance of the saints according what the Bible saying. I am 100% agree with Eph. 1:13,14; and 2 Tim. 1:12.
This post of the part two is already very long. I better stop typing this post. And I am going to make another post on part three on 'spirit' .
To be continued...
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
actually what its called is that those who are saved have eternal life and those who are lost DONT... They are thrown into hell for a certain time period and then DESTROYED, according to the Bible. Thats because "the wages of sin is DEATH (not eternal life in hell)but the gift of God is eternal life" sorry but you dont get that gift if you are not saved. Thats why its called THE SECOND DEATH...
and I dont know why you brought this up HERE instead of on my thread about Hell where I have scores of Bible texts to back up my position... instead of coming HERE on this thread and equating me with an Atheist.
and I dont know why you brought this up HERE instead of on my thread about Hell where I have scores of Bible texts to back up my position... instead of coming HERE on this thread and equating me with an Atheist.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Let's continue discuss on 'spirit'.
Securists & Calvinists use Eph. 1:13,14 to prove us that we cannot lose salvation, because the Holy Spirit already sealed in us and hold us till rapture. No matter how many sins we commited, we still always saved long as till rapture or we die.
I understand Eph. 1:13-14 differently as what they intepreting it.
Before I discuss on Eph. 1:13-14 with you. Another passage, they use it to prove of security salvation- John 10:28-29. They saying of this passage tellling us that, no one can take us out of God's hand, because Christ already give us the eternal life-salvation.
I am 100% agree with this passage. Christ is right. No one can take us out of God's hand when after Christ give us of eternal life.
Understand, securists often pick John 10:28-29 by skip verse 27. Verse 27 is so very important key to understand the context of verse 27-29 more clear, what Christ actual talking about.
Christ promises us, that He gives us eternal life, LONG as no one will take us away from our salvation in his hand, UNLESS, IF we hear God's Word, and to FOLLOW God's Word include Christ.
OR.... if we stopped follow Christ, then Christ would loose us out of his hand in our freewill decision.
Luke 15:11-32 is a perfect example that it teaches us, that we all have freewill to make decision, and we can astray away from the Lord. Lord CANNOT force us to stay in his hand all the time. Lord allows us to make decision with our choices. Also, Joshua 24:15 tells us, it is very clear that we all have choices which we want to follow God or world.
I agree with 2 Tim. 1:12 telling us, that Paul and other Christians who believed in Christ, He is able to keep Paul and others till rapture or die. Notice important word - 'committed'. He means that he already determined and dedicated his life to follow Christ long as Christ is able to keep him till rapture or die.
OR... what IF we stopped committed to Christ, then He would not keep us in the halfway in our lifetime by the time we die or Lord comes.
Paul tells us, God is able to keep us LONG as we continue to committed Him TILL we die or Lord comes. This verse doesn't prove the proof of security salvation, also, it is not unconditional. It is very clear conditional.
Now, back to track on Eph. 1:13-14 again. Before I explaining this passage. I want to discuss on Eph. 4:30 first. It says,
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."
This verse seems prove the support of the doctrine of security salvation, according as what securists saying.
My understanding of Eph. 4:30 differently as what securists interpreting it.
Why does Paul telling us with the warning that we do NOT greive the Holy Spirit?
Simple, Paul answer of this- because we are sealed UNTO the day of redemption.
Does Eph. 1:13-14 show us, that we are already guaranteed already saved at once as stay secured by the Holy Spirit till rapture or we die? I mean, does this passage telling us, that we are already "automatical" already saved at the moment right after we accepted Christ, already have eternal life for good?
No. Eph. 1:13-14 do not saying that we are already 'automatical' or 'guaranteed' that we already have eternal life and are secured all the way throughout our life till rapture or we die.
I want to explaining Eph. 1:13-14 to you more clear as what I understand what Apostle Paul said.
When we reading Revelation 19:7-9 talking about the wedding of the Lamb.
I have a GOOD thought of Rev. 19:7-9. I want to explaining it to you as it refers with Eph. 1:13-14.
Let's focus on Eph. 1:13-14 first.
Right now, the Holy Spirit is sealed in Christian's body/soul since they believd Christ. Holy Spirit is a type of "engaged".
We notice many couples are being engaged. That does not mean they are guaranteed or already automatically or offically "married" at the moment, they first meet and fall in love.
At the first, when they first meet, they start to warming up as 'friend'. In the process, they are developing in their relationship to test each other for within several months. As the next several months later, they are seriously love each other. So, one day a male brought an engagement ring, and to surprise his girlfriend that he is declare to her, that they are going to be marry. So, they are being engaged. So, does that mean they are already married???
No. Being engaged is not a offically married yet. Being engaged is in a process toward the day of marriage.
While they are engaged, that mean, they are make agreement and make pledge each other, that they are determined to be marry.
But, by the halfway toward their the date of the marriage approaching. They decide to break up, and end up being engaged. Because they are not get along well, and not work out well.
Same with the idea of the Holy Spirit is now engaged with us since after we hear the gospel and believed in Christ. That does not mean we are already marry to Christ.
I want to show you in Jeremiah 3:8 says: "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel commited adultery I had put her AWAY and given her a bill of DIVORCE; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played harlot also."
This verse telling us, God dropped her away, because of their wicked and iniquities. God was justified for divorced Israel. He has a good reason for divorced her.
Understand, during in that time of Jeremiah's period. Jeremiah, himself as prophet. He did warning to Israel, that God will punish them, and commanded them to repent of their sins. But, they disobey Jeremiah's warning, remain in their iniquities. So, several years later, God sent babylon takeover Israel, and broight them into captivity. Obivous, God did divorced them. Does that mean God already divorced Israel as WHOLE nation in the rest of the Old Testament period for good???
No. God divorced them as INDIVIDUAL. Because of their sins.
Another question is, does God remarried Israel again when they repented again? Yes. But, Himself is not actual "remarried " them again.
Let's back to Eph. 1:13-14 again. When we heard the gospel, believed and accepted Christ, the Holy Spirit comes into us, and He sealed us, show that we are engaged with Jesus Christ. Does not mean that we are offically or automatically married to Christ yet.
Is the Church married Christ already????
No. The Church is not yet marry to Christ.
Rev. 19:7-9 telling us, that the Church WILL BE marry to Christ by follow at the second coming. Right now, Church is engaged with Christ.
I am trying my best as I can to explaining you why the Church is currently engaged with Christ.
Matt. 16:18 tells us, right now, Christ is currently built his church. That mean, He is NOT finish built his church. Builting the church will be completed by follow at the second coming of Revelation 19.
Obivously, Christ is not yet marry to the Church right now.
Church means God's people.
Ephesians 1:13,14 is deal with individual, NOT the whole church as Christ's body.
Ephesians 1:13-14 tell us, when a person or individual hear the gospel, believed and repented, accepted Christ, then Holy Spirit comes into person's body, as a person is sealed is remain sealed till rapture or die. It shows that a person is now engaged with Jesus Christ.
Before Christ returns back to heaven. In John chapter 14, Christ told his disciples, He promised them, that He shall sent the comforter, the Holy Spirit to them. As it already fulfilled at Pencostal Day of Acts 3. Holy Spirit is a picture of mediator or intercessor between us and Jesus Christ.
Right now, Jesus Christ is sit on the right hand of God the Father in the heaven. He is up above. He is not on earth right now. How can we communicate direct to Jesus Christ from earth to heaven? By through the Holy Spirit.
When once Christ comes to earth at the second coming, then the work of the Holy Spirit witin us will be completed and done. As we shall be marry to Christ in person and physical.
I better stop typing this post. This is very long. In the next post part four, I will continue discuss more deep on spirit with verses.
To be continued. Sorry!
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Securists & Calvinists use Eph. 1:13,14 to prove us that we cannot lose salvation, because the Holy Spirit already sealed in us and hold us till rapture. No matter how many sins we commited, we still always saved long as till rapture or we die.
I understand Eph. 1:13-14 differently as what they intepreting it.
Before I discuss on Eph. 1:13-14 with you. Another passage, they use it to prove of security salvation- John 10:28-29. They saying of this passage tellling us that, no one can take us out of God's hand, because Christ already give us the eternal life-salvation.
I am 100% agree with this passage. Christ is right. No one can take us out of God's hand when after Christ give us of eternal life.
Understand, securists often pick John 10:28-29 by skip verse 27. Verse 27 is so very important key to understand the context of verse 27-29 more clear, what Christ actual talking about.
Christ promises us, that He gives us eternal life, LONG as no one will take us away from our salvation in his hand, UNLESS, IF we hear God's Word, and to FOLLOW God's Word include Christ.
OR.... if we stopped follow Christ, then Christ would loose us out of his hand in our freewill decision.
Luke 15:11-32 is a perfect example that it teaches us, that we all have freewill to make decision, and we can astray away from the Lord. Lord CANNOT force us to stay in his hand all the time. Lord allows us to make decision with our choices. Also, Joshua 24:15 tells us, it is very clear that we all have choices which we want to follow God or world.
I agree with 2 Tim. 1:12 telling us, that Paul and other Christians who believed in Christ, He is able to keep Paul and others till rapture or die. Notice important word - 'committed'. He means that he already determined and dedicated his life to follow Christ long as Christ is able to keep him till rapture or die.
OR... what IF we stopped committed to Christ, then He would not keep us in the halfway in our lifetime by the time we die or Lord comes.
Paul tells us, God is able to keep us LONG as we continue to committed Him TILL we die or Lord comes. This verse doesn't prove the proof of security salvation, also, it is not unconditional. It is very clear conditional.
Now, back to track on Eph. 1:13-14 again. Before I explaining this passage. I want to discuss on Eph. 4:30 first. It says,
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."
This verse seems prove the support of the doctrine of security salvation, according as what securists saying.
My understanding of Eph. 4:30 differently as what securists interpreting it.
Why does Paul telling us with the warning that we do NOT greive the Holy Spirit?
Simple, Paul answer of this- because we are sealed UNTO the day of redemption.
Does Eph. 1:13-14 show us, that we are already guaranteed already saved at once as stay secured by the Holy Spirit till rapture or we die? I mean, does this passage telling us, that we are already "automatical" already saved at the moment right after we accepted Christ, already have eternal life for good?
No. Eph. 1:13-14 do not saying that we are already 'automatical' or 'guaranteed' that we already have eternal life and are secured all the way throughout our life till rapture or we die.
I want to explaining Eph. 1:13-14 to you more clear as what I understand what Apostle Paul said.
When we reading Revelation 19:7-9 talking about the wedding of the Lamb.
I have a GOOD thought of Rev. 19:7-9. I want to explaining it to you as it refers with Eph. 1:13-14.
Let's focus on Eph. 1:13-14 first.
Right now, the Holy Spirit is sealed in Christian's body/soul since they believd Christ. Holy Spirit is a type of "engaged".
We notice many couples are being engaged. That does not mean they are guaranteed or already automatically or offically "married" at the moment, they first meet and fall in love.
At the first, when they first meet, they start to warming up as 'friend'. In the process, they are developing in their relationship to test each other for within several months. As the next several months later, they are seriously love each other. So, one day a male brought an engagement ring, and to surprise his girlfriend that he is declare to her, that they are going to be marry. So, they are being engaged. So, does that mean they are already married???
No. Being engaged is not a offically married yet. Being engaged is in a process toward the day of marriage.
While they are engaged, that mean, they are make agreement and make pledge each other, that they are determined to be marry.
But, by the halfway toward their the date of the marriage approaching. They decide to break up, and end up being engaged. Because they are not get along well, and not work out well.
Same with the idea of the Holy Spirit is now engaged with us since after we hear the gospel and believed in Christ. That does not mean we are already marry to Christ.
I want to show you in Jeremiah 3:8 says: "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel commited adultery I had put her AWAY and given her a bill of DIVORCE; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played harlot also."
This verse telling us, God dropped her away, because of their wicked and iniquities. God was justified for divorced Israel. He has a good reason for divorced her.
Understand, during in that time of Jeremiah's period. Jeremiah, himself as prophet. He did warning to Israel, that God will punish them, and commanded them to repent of their sins. But, they disobey Jeremiah's warning, remain in their iniquities. So, several years later, God sent babylon takeover Israel, and broight them into captivity. Obivous, God did divorced them. Does that mean God already divorced Israel as WHOLE nation in the rest of the Old Testament period for good???
No. God divorced them as INDIVIDUAL. Because of their sins.
Another question is, does God remarried Israel again when they repented again? Yes. But, Himself is not actual "remarried " them again.
Let's back to Eph. 1:13-14 again. When we heard the gospel, believed and accepted Christ, the Holy Spirit comes into us, and He sealed us, show that we are engaged with Jesus Christ. Does not mean that we are offically or automatically married to Christ yet.
Is the Church married Christ already????
No. The Church is not yet marry to Christ.
Rev. 19:7-9 telling us, that the Church WILL BE marry to Christ by follow at the second coming. Right now, Church is engaged with Christ.
I am trying my best as I can to explaining you why the Church is currently engaged with Christ.
Matt. 16:18 tells us, right now, Christ is currently built his church. That mean, He is NOT finish built his church. Builting the church will be completed by follow at the second coming of Revelation 19.
Obivously, Christ is not yet marry to the Church right now.
Church means God's people.
Ephesians 1:13,14 is deal with individual, NOT the whole church as Christ's body.
Ephesians 1:13-14 tell us, when a person or individual hear the gospel, believed and repented, accepted Christ, then Holy Spirit comes into person's body, as a person is sealed is remain sealed till rapture or die. It shows that a person is now engaged with Jesus Christ.
Before Christ returns back to heaven. In John chapter 14, Christ told his disciples, He promised them, that He shall sent the comforter, the Holy Spirit to them. As it already fulfilled at Pencostal Day of Acts 3. Holy Spirit is a picture of mediator or intercessor between us and Jesus Christ.
Right now, Jesus Christ is sit on the right hand of God the Father in the heaven. He is up above. He is not on earth right now. How can we communicate direct to Jesus Christ from earth to heaven? By through the Holy Spirit.
When once Christ comes to earth at the second coming, then the work of the Holy Spirit witin us will be completed and done. As we shall be marry to Christ in person and physical.
I better stop typing this post. This is very long. In the next post part four, I will continue discuss more deep on spirit with verses.
To be continued. Sorry!
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
To me, many of these threads have degenerated into this same old song of "kingdom of God verses everlasting life" and "what is the difference between soul, body and spirit". I mean its getting old, you know? Its like these kingdom of God people have taken over everything.
How can you have any kind of a conversation about any subject when now everything you talk about gets brought to this same topic again?
How can you have any kind of a conversation about any subject when now everything you talk about gets brought to this same topic again?
Claudia because the kingdom is supposed to be our focus. That's one of the permiating messages throughout the Bible. Everything is supposed to be focused on that coming seventh day (seventh 1000-year period).
That's the whole reason why the Holy Spirit didn't move men to write much about eternity, becuase our focus is not to be on eternity. Our focus is to be found worthy to become a part of the bride of Christ. Eternity takes care of itself, whereas the kingdom does not take care of itself as most Christians teach.
When you are saved you don't automatically become part of the bride. And if you aren't a part of the bride then you don't rule and reign during that period.
That's the whole reason why the Holy Spirit didn't move men to write much about eternity, becuase our focus is not to be on eternity. Our focus is to be found worthy to become a part of the bride of Christ. Eternity takes care of itself, whereas the kingdom does not take care of itself as most Christians teach.
When you are saved you don't automatically become part of the bride. And if you aren't a part of the bride then you don't rule and reign during that period.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
I promise, I will make post on spirit tomorrow. I need break from making post at baptistboard. Because I need to get rest to get ready for third shift job tonight. I made these posts in this topic recently last night, because of my night off from 3rd shift job. Let you know.
Have a nice day! God bless you!
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Have a nice day! God bless you!
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
JJ: Claudia because the kingdom is supposed to be our focus.
HP: You say some confusing things. In one breath you say that we need to keep our focus on being found worthy to become the bride of Christ. If only I could come to place I felt you really believed that. What does that matter to you? Was it not your position of OSAS and that nothing can separate us from God including blatant sin? If a holy walk is not a prerequisite for being part of the bride of Christ, what am I to watch for to be found worthy?
You say that we need to keep focused, not on eternity, but on the kingdom. Do you suppose for a moment that in all your preparations you can alter the hand of God and His plans in the kingdom one iota? Who are we to think we can overcome or alter the immutable necessitated plans of God? Coming from what appears to be your perspective it would appear to me that all your focusing has already been written in stone, with nothing for you left to do is ride out necessitated fate.
You say that when we are saved, we are not part of the bride of Christ. Would you mind sharing that reference with us? Can you have the Spirit of Christ and not be part of the bride? (understanding that again we are a part of the bride by FAITH, in this present world) Are you suggesting that some are saved, but do not have on white garments and did not in the end attend the wedding supper? It seems to me that Jesus had a parable concerning a wedding feast that might be applicable to this discussion.
Jesus gave us a discourse of the last days in the 24th Chapter of Matt. In between which verses do you read about this 1000 year reign literally on this earth? Jesus likened His kingdom to several illustrations, the virgins, the days of Noah and the flood, etc. Which of those fit your model of the end times?
What about the following verses? How do you see them as fitting within the corpus of your ideas as to the kngdom? Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
Finally, Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" I would hope that you feel that one must love God to take part with Him in eternity, but are you saying that some that love God do not take part in His kingdom? It would appear to me as a promise that indeed every man, women and child that loves God could lay hold to by faith. If I take what you purport at face value, I would conclude that you believe this promise cannot be taken at face value, that some may love God yet not see the fulfillment of this promise. I am right? If not, please forgive me.
HP: You say some confusing things. In one breath you say that we need to keep our focus on being found worthy to become the bride of Christ. If only I could come to place I felt you really believed that. What does that matter to you? Was it not your position of OSAS and that nothing can separate us from God including blatant sin? If a holy walk is not a prerequisite for being part of the bride of Christ, what am I to watch for to be found worthy?
You say that we need to keep focused, not on eternity, but on the kingdom. Do you suppose for a moment that in all your preparations you can alter the hand of God and His plans in the kingdom one iota? Who are we to think we can overcome or alter the immutable necessitated plans of God? Coming from what appears to be your perspective it would appear to me that all your focusing has already been written in stone, with nothing for you left to do is ride out necessitated fate.
You say that when we are saved, we are not part of the bride of Christ. Would you mind sharing that reference with us? Can you have the Spirit of Christ and not be part of the bride? (understanding that again we are a part of the bride by FAITH, in this present world) Are you suggesting that some are saved, but do not have on white garments and did not in the end attend the wedding supper? It seems to me that Jesus had a parable concerning a wedding feast that might be applicable to this discussion.
Jesus gave us a discourse of the last days in the 24th Chapter of Matt. In between which verses do you read about this 1000 year reign literally on this earth? Jesus likened His kingdom to several illustrations, the virgins, the days of Noah and the flood, etc. Which of those fit your model of the end times?
What about the following verses? How do you see them as fitting within the corpus of your ideas as to the kngdom? Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
Finally, Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" I would hope that you feel that one must love God to take part with Him in eternity, but are you saying that some that love God do not take part in His kingdom? It would appear to me as a promise that indeed every man, women and child that loves God could lay hold to by faith. If I take what you purport at face value, I would conclude that you believe this promise cannot be taken at face value, that some may love God yet not see the fulfillment of this promise. I am right? If not, please forgive me.
Being a part of the bride of Christ has nothing to do with eternity. It has everything to do with ruling and reigning with Him during His 1,000-year kingdom.
If we are found worthy...if we overcome...then we will be part of the bride of Christ and will rule and reign in the coming age. If we are found unworthy...nonovercomers...then we do not rule and reign in the coming age.
But it doesn't have anything to do with eternity.
Honestly your philosophical jargon is hard to get through. Fate has nothing to do with anything. It has everything to do with FAITH! You will be found worhty because of faith or vice versa and you will overcome by faith or vice versa.
Again has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
That is correct. One can be saved and not a part of the bride of Christ. This has been explained in detail before. Not sure if it was on this thread.
You can see this picture in both the OT and the NT. You already mentioned that there was a parable in the NT. And if you will remember there was a person that was there that wasn't wearing the right clothing. Do you think that was an unsaved person? Not hardly. That was a saved person that was found unworthy. Do you think that God will just let an unsaved person sneak in to the wedding feast unaware? Not going to happen.
In the OT you can see this picture in Adam and Eve. It's the picture of Christ and His bride. Eve wasn't all of the body of Adam just a part of his body. The church (body of Christ) will not make up the bride, only a part of the body will make up the bride.
You can also see this picture in Isaac and Rebekah. Abraham sends his servant back to his people (family). He is instructed to find a bride from out of the family. The bride was a part of the family, but not the entire family made up the bride, just part of the family.
Christ was not here offering a physical kingdom. He was here offering the realm of the kingdom that Satan and his angels are currently ruling from. This is a spiritual realm. Israel was already promised the earthy kingdom and it will be delivered to them, but the spiritual side of the kingdom had yet to be offered and was offered while Christ was on the earth.
No you are not right. Those that love God will do all the things necessary to become a part of the bride. While there are those that are saved that do not love God becuase they don't keep His commandments. However, their lack of love does not impact their eternal destiny. Nowhere does it say we are saved by faith as long as we love God, when we stop loving God then we are not saved any longer.
HELLFIRE IS NOT ETERNAL
--The doctrine of Eternally Burning Hell came from the Roman Catholic Church along with Purgatory. They got it from the Greek Pagans. They got it from the Greek Pagans. Natural Immortality of the soul is not found in the Scriptures, it is a gift from God when you receive Eternal Life. The wicked DO NOT receive Eternal Life ... in Hellfire or Heaven. The "wages of sin is death". We "put on immortality" of the soul at the second coming of Christ, and the wicked do NOT.
1Cor:15:54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor:15:53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Jn:3:16: That whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have eternal life.
The wicked are going to burn for a certain time in Hell and then PERISH.
Notice this is called the SECOND DEATH..
everyone dies the first natural death but the second death is in Hell.
Rv:21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is THE SECOND DEATH.
This was known as "the death" or the second death... it is what Jesus died on the cross,, the Second Death, in our place.
Mt:15:4: For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Now look at Sodom and Gammorah:
Jude:1:7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Is Sodom and Gammorah, which are given as examples of "eternal fire" burning today? NO of course not.
The wicked are BURNED UP with the unquenchable fires of Hell...
Mt:3:12: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire.
the wicked will be as ashes under the feet...
Mal:4:3: And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mt:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.
JUst because the Bible says people burn in hell "forever and ever" doesnt necessarily mean as we normally think of as "forever". We have to look at ALL the Bible verses about what happens to the wicked...
How is the term understood in the case of certain Hebrew servants?
"His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." Ex. 21:6.
NOTE. - He could not serve his master longer than he lived.
For how long a time did Samuel's mother lend him to the Lord to serve in the temple?
"I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide forever." "Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." 1 Sam. 1:22, 28.
"forever" in this case meant as long as he would live.
Read the book of Jonah and you will discover he stayed in the belly of the whale "FOREVER" but we know it was only 3 days...
The wicked will be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION"
2Thes:1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
What does the Saviour say will befall those who do not repent?
"I tell you, Nay; but, except ye repent, ye shall all like wise perish." Luke 13:3 (1 Cor. 1:18) (Job 20:4-6).
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption." 2 Peter 2:12.
"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the lord shall be as the fat of lambs; they shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away." Ps. 37:20.
"As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more; but the righteous is an everlasting foundation." Prov. 10:25.
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Mal. 4:1.
Rom:6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The wages of sin is DEATH. not eternal life in Hell.
the wicked dont get to have eternal life in hell or otherwise.
What is eternal about it is eternal punishMENT
not eternal punishING
the eternal punishMENT is eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord...
you dont get to be with God... forever
2Thes:1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
Phil:3:19: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption." 2 Peter 2:12.
"As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more; but the righteous is an everlasting foundation." Prov. 10:25.
"For as ye have drunk upon My holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually; yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been." Obad. 1:16.
Where will the place of the wicked be?
"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be; yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Ps. 37:10.
It would be difficult to keep the wicked in a state of eternal torment without any place in which to exist.
Where will the wicked receive their punishment, death, which is the wages of sin?
"Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth; much more the wicked and the sinner." Prov. 11:31.
How is this accomplished?
"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Rev. 20:9
When do the wicked receive their punishment? The wicked dead are not now in hell as is commonly taught
"The lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9 (Job 21:29, 30).
and the devil... what becomes of him??
Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone
Ezekiel 28:18,19
therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee...and never shalt thou be any more.
--The doctrine of Eternally Burning Hell came from the Roman Catholic Church along with Purgatory. They got it from the Greek Pagans. They got it from the Greek Pagans. Natural Immortality of the soul is not found in the Scriptures, it is a gift from God when you receive Eternal Life. The wicked DO NOT receive Eternal Life ... in Hellfire or Heaven. The "wages of sin is death". We "put on immortality" of the soul at the second coming of Christ, and the wicked do NOT.
1Cor:15:54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor:15:53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Jn:3:16: That whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have eternal life.
The wicked are going to burn for a certain time in Hell and then PERISH.
Notice this is called the SECOND DEATH..
everyone dies the first natural death but the second death is in Hell.
Rv:21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is THE SECOND DEATH.
This was known as "the death" or the second death... it is what Jesus died on the cross,, the Second Death, in our place.
Mt:15:4: For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Now look at Sodom and Gammorah:
Jude:1:7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Is Sodom and Gammorah, which are given as examples of "eternal fire" burning today? NO of course not.
The wicked are BURNED UP with the unquenchable fires of Hell...
Mt:3:12: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire.
the wicked will be as ashes under the feet...
Mal:4:3: And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mt:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.
JUst because the Bible says people burn in hell "forever and ever" doesnt necessarily mean as we normally think of as "forever". We have to look at ALL the Bible verses about what happens to the wicked...
How is the term understood in the case of certain Hebrew servants?
"His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." Ex. 21:6.
NOTE. - He could not serve his master longer than he lived.
For how long a time did Samuel's mother lend him to the Lord to serve in the temple?
"I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide forever." "Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." 1 Sam. 1:22, 28.
"forever" in this case meant as long as he would live.
Read the book of Jonah and you will discover he stayed in the belly of the whale "FOREVER" but we know it was only 3 days...
The wicked will be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION"
2Thes:1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
What does the Saviour say will befall those who do not repent?
"I tell you, Nay; but, except ye repent, ye shall all like wise perish." Luke 13:3 (1 Cor. 1:18) (Job 20:4-6).
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption." 2 Peter 2:12.
"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the lord shall be as the fat of lambs; they shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away." Ps. 37:20.
"As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more; but the righteous is an everlasting foundation." Prov. 10:25.
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Mal. 4:1.
Rom:6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The wages of sin is DEATH. not eternal life in Hell.
the wicked dont get to have eternal life in hell or otherwise.
What is eternal about it is eternal punishMENT
not eternal punishING
the eternal punishMENT is eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord...
you dont get to be with God... forever
2Thes:1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
Phil:3:19: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption." 2 Peter 2:12.
"As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more; but the righteous is an everlasting foundation." Prov. 10:25.
"For as ye have drunk upon My holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually; yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been." Obad. 1:16.
Where will the place of the wicked be?
"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be; yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Ps. 37:10.
It would be difficult to keep the wicked in a state of eternal torment without any place in which to exist.
Where will the wicked receive their punishment, death, which is the wages of sin?
"Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth; much more the wicked and the sinner." Prov. 11:31.
How is this accomplished?
"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Rev. 20:9
When do the wicked receive their punishment? The wicked dead are not now in hell as is commonly taught
"The lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9 (Job 21:29, 30).
and the devil... what becomes of him??
Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone
Ezekiel 28:18,19
therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee...and never shalt thou be any more.
Just go read my post above on "Hellfire is not eternal"Originally posted by Dustin:
Hell's not eternal? Wow, I guess I need to scratch that part out of my Bible then...
More verses like that too... you dont need to delete the part about burning forever in your Bible, you just need to compare scripture with scripture to find out what it is really saying.
Claudia
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
JJ: Being a part of the bride of Christ has nothing to do with eternity.
Hi JJ,
Now what evidence do you have of that?
JJ: It has everything to do with ruling and reigning with Him during His 1,000-year kingdom.
HP: Says who?
JJ: If we are found worthy...if we overcome...then we will be part of the bride of Christ and will rule and reign in the coming age. If we are found unworthy...nonovercomers...then we do not rule and reign in the coming age.
HP: Oh yea. I remember. Not ruling in the Lake of Fire it is what Scripture says is the fate of those that do not overcome.
JJ: Fate has nothing to do with anything. It has everything to do with FAITH! You will be found worhty because of faith or vice versa and you will overcome by faith or vice versa.
Again has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
HP: I thought faith was a gift of God? You sound like I can either have faith or not. Are you telling me that you think you have something to do with your faith? Is not that faith by works?
JJ:One can be saved and not a part of the bride of Christ. This has been explained in detail before. Not sure if it was on this thread.
HP: Now be reasonable JJ. There are hundreds of posts out there to sift through. You know your references by heart. Help me out. Give me one or two verses that you can be saved and not be the bride of Christ.
HP: Yes as a matter of fact I do. Read the end for yourself. Mt 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Doesn’t sound too saved to me, or heaven either.
JJ: You can see this picture in both the OT and the NT. You already mentioned that there was a parable in the NT. And if you will remember there was a person that was there that wasn't wearing the right clothing. Do you think that was an unsaved person? Not hardly. That was a saved person that was found unworthy.
HP: I will just let you read the verse above again.
JJ: Do you think that God will just let an unsaved person sneak in to the wedding feast unaware? Not going to happen.
HP: It cannot happen?????…….It just happened!, but they could not stay. They just didn’t loose some ‘reward’ either. There will be no sorrow in heaven. Weeping, wailing and the gnashing of teeth describe torment in a living burning hell.If there is any supper for them there, it will be without refreshments.
JJ: In the OT you can see this picture in Adam and Eve. It's the picture of Christ and His bride. Eve wasn't all of the body of Adam just a part of his body. The church (body of Christ) will not make up the bride, only a part of the body will make up the bride.
HP: Have you ever heard of the term ‘type and shadow?’ Be careful not to make an illustration of such a nature walk on all four legs in order to prove some manufactured notion.
JJ: You can also see this picture in Isaac and Rebekah. Abraham sends his servant back to his people (family). He is instructed to find a bride from out of the family. The bride was a part of the family, but not the entire family made up the bride, just part of the family.
HP: I cannot believe what I am reading. I have yet to hear a more unfounded argumentation in all my life. You cannot be serious.
JJ: Those that love God will do all the things necessary to become a part of the bride. While there are those that are saved that do not love God becuase they don't keep His commandments.
HP: Loving God and keeping the commandments have nothing to do with receiving or keeping salvation…..remember???? What import can a non-issue have with anything? What are you speaking about?
JJ: However, their lack of love does not impact their eternal destiny.
HP: Reality check! Love for God has nothing to do with our eternal destiny? Speaking of pure unadulterated antinomian doctrine…… Wasn’t there something about loving God somewhere in Scripture? I remember, “He that saith he loveth me , and keepeth not my commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.” Commandment #1: De 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
[ May 20, 2006, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Heavenly Pilgrim ]
Hi JJ,
Now what evidence do you have of that?
JJ: It has everything to do with ruling and reigning with Him during His 1,000-year kingdom.
HP: Says who?
JJ: If we are found worthy...if we overcome...then we will be part of the bride of Christ and will rule and reign in the coming age. If we are found unworthy...nonovercomers...then we do not rule and reign in the coming age.
HP: Oh yea. I remember. Not ruling in the Lake of Fire it is what Scripture says is the fate of those that do not overcome.
JJ: Fate has nothing to do with anything. It has everything to do with FAITH! You will be found worhty because of faith or vice versa and you will overcome by faith or vice versa.
Again has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
HP: I thought faith was a gift of God? You sound like I can either have faith or not. Are you telling me that you think you have something to do with your faith? Is not that faith by works?
JJ:One can be saved and not a part of the bride of Christ. This has been explained in detail before. Not sure if it was on this thread.
HP: Now be reasonable JJ. There are hundreds of posts out there to sift through. You know your references by heart. Help me out. Give me one or two verses that you can be saved and not be the bride of Christ.
HP: Yes as a matter of fact I do. Read the end for yourself. Mt 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Doesn’t sound too saved to me, or heaven either.
JJ: You can see this picture in both the OT and the NT. You already mentioned that there was a parable in the NT. And if you will remember there was a person that was there that wasn't wearing the right clothing. Do you think that was an unsaved person? Not hardly. That was a saved person that was found unworthy.
HP: I will just let you read the verse above again.
JJ: Do you think that God will just let an unsaved person sneak in to the wedding feast unaware? Not going to happen.
HP: It cannot happen?????…….It just happened!, but they could not stay. They just didn’t loose some ‘reward’ either. There will be no sorrow in heaven. Weeping, wailing and the gnashing of teeth describe torment in a living burning hell.If there is any supper for them there, it will be without refreshments.
JJ: In the OT you can see this picture in Adam and Eve. It's the picture of Christ and His bride. Eve wasn't all of the body of Adam just a part of his body. The church (body of Christ) will not make up the bride, only a part of the body will make up the bride.
HP: Have you ever heard of the term ‘type and shadow?’ Be careful not to make an illustration of such a nature walk on all four legs in order to prove some manufactured notion.
JJ: You can also see this picture in Isaac and Rebekah. Abraham sends his servant back to his people (family). He is instructed to find a bride from out of the family. The bride was a part of the family, but not the entire family made up the bride, just part of the family.
HP: I cannot believe what I am reading. I have yet to hear a more unfounded argumentation in all my life. You cannot be serious.
JJ: Those that love God will do all the things necessary to become a part of the bride. While there are those that are saved that do not love God becuase they don't keep His commandments.
HP: Loving God and keeping the commandments have nothing to do with receiving or keeping salvation…..remember???? What import can a non-issue have with anything? What are you speaking about?
JJ: However, their lack of love does not impact their eternal destiny.
HP: Reality check! Love for God has nothing to do with our eternal destiny? Speaking of pure unadulterated antinomian doctrine…… Wasn’t there something about loving God somewhere in Scripture? I remember, “He that saith he loveth me , and keepeth not my commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.” Commandment #1: De 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
[ May 20, 2006, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Heavenly Pilgrim ]
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Cluadia: The doctrine of Eternally Burning Hell came from the Roman Catholic Church along with Purgatory. They got it from the Greek Pagans.
HP: Pardon me? I do not follow the Roman Catholic religion, and I am not a pagan, but I can read Scripture and it refutes without question what you are purporting. Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
How will the smoke of their torment burn forever without an object present? Reason and logic tells me that if the smoke comes from an object, and the object is finite, the smoke of necessity must be finite as well, unless you believe in somthing coming from nothing.
Your job is to show forth that a finite object can create smoke infinitely.
HP: Pardon me? I do not follow the Roman Catholic religion, and I am not a pagan, but I can read Scripture and it refutes without question what you are purporting. Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
How will the smoke of their torment burn forever without an object present? Reason and logic tells me that if the smoke comes from an object, and the object is finite, the smoke of necessity must be finite as well, unless you believe in somthing coming from nothing.
Your job is to show forth that a finite object can create smoke infinitely.