It's not just the SBC we are after..muwhahahahaha

[ReformedBaptist]

I happened accross this link this afternoon and thought it interesting.

http://fundyreformed.wordpress.com/about/

Having served as an IFB pastor I thought this was interesting.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

So the idea is that calvinist are incapable of planting and sustaining thier own churches so they go out and infiltrate others and polute them. Although I am not KJVO calvinists are making those guys look better all the time.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

So the idea is that calvinist are incapable of planting and sustaining thier own churches so they go out and infiltrate others and polute them. Although I am not KJVO calvinists are making those guys look better all the time.

It was a joke Bill. The young man who started that website said, "I’m under no illusion that I might transform fundamentalism, but I hope to share my struggles and discoveries with others who might benefit from my journey."

Sounds pretty humble to me. But I guess for some of us humor is difficult. lol More likely, my humor is terrible.

Oh well, God bless.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

My Dear Reformed,
You are one of the more level headed calvinists on the board and it is generally a pleasure to speak to you. I can see how you would see this a funny especially since you a fairly new to the board. We have some people here who that site and sentiment fits to a tee.

 

[Bob Alkire]

So the idea is that calvinist are incapable of planting and sustaining thier own churches so they go out and infiltrate others and polute them. Although I am not KJVO calvinists are making those guys look better all the time.

What was it, about three or four years ago, a lot or a few churches in the SBC and IFB had that happen. I think one of them was the one Jerry Vines had been the pastor of in Mobile, Al. before he went to Jacksonville, Fl. was having that problem. If I recall correctly there were a few in Al., Tn, Ms., Ga. and a few other places.

Maybe someone will recall more of it than I do at this time.

 

[John of Japan]

I'm afraid Calvinists are indeed causing trouble in IFB churches (and I don't mean the so-called IFBx crowd). On our last furlough we heard what is happening in Illinois. Unfortunately there is a type of young Calvinist that believes all Baptists simply must agree with them or they will know the reason why!

To ReformedBaptist: On another thread (you know which one) I mentioned this crowd of young Calvinists as full of vim, vigor and venom, and to tell the truth, I felt your opening gambit on that thread was venom. What I've seen from you since has been gracious and reasoned. Keep up the good work.

Having said that, I'll believe that these young Calvinists are not out to take over our churches, but are ready to follow the Great Commission, when I see some of them come on out to the mission field and start churches. Where are the Reformed Baptist mission boards? There are none to my knowledge, though a google search will turn up a very few missionaries that say they are Reformed Baptist. Years ago there was a Reformed Baptist in Japan down on the island of Shikoku, but he's been gone for years.

 

[John of Japan]

It was a joke Bill. The young man who started that website said, "I’m under no illusion that I might transform fundamentalism, but I hope to share my struggles and discoveries with others who might benefit from my journey."

Sounds pretty humble to me. But I guess for some of us humor is difficult. lol More likely, my humor is terrible.

Oh well, God bless.

He also said one of the aims of his blog was to "Encourage wider reform in fundamentalism." No thanks. Let him go start his own movement, not try to reform the movement my theological forebears suffered to bring about

 

[Bob Alkire]

On the church in Mobile, Al.
http://www.thealabamabaptist.org/ip_template.asp?upid=2045

 

[EdSutton]

I really wonder just how many so-called "fundamentalists" have actually read The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth,first compiled under the direction of A. C. Dixon, then by Louis Meyer, and finallyedited by R. A. Torrey? I suggest virtually none today have read all the essays that appeared in the series, although one can read 90 of those, fairly easily. Some 6-10 articles or so are not easily had, as I do not believe all made the edited books. I have not read any of those 6-10 articles, but have read most, if not all, of the 90 easily found.

Here is are two good places to start:

http://www.xmission.com/~fidelis/

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fundcont.htm

Contrary to what this second site author implies, there are the 6-10 articles not found here, that I mentioned above. If anyone has a locale for these 6-10 essays, I would appreciate it, BTW. Thanks to all, and I encourage each and all to actually start to read The Fundamentals.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Although I am not KJVO calvinists are making those guys look better all the time.

:laugh: :laugh:

Now that is a great line! :thumbs:

Ed

P.S. I'm sorry to hear about problems at the Dauphin Way Baptist Church, even as I would be sorry to hear of any problems of a similar nature at any church.

 

[Bob Alkire]

I really wonder just how many so-called "fundamentalists" have actually read The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth,first compiled under the direction of A. C. Dixon, then by Louis Meyer, and finallyedited by R. A. Torrey?

I have the set's last edited by Torrey on my book shelf.

 

[John of Japan]

On the church in Mobile, Al.
http://www.thealabamabaptist.org/ip_template.asp?upid=2045

That's a very sad story. I hate church splits, having suffered through one in a church my father pastored.

Calvinist pastors should minister in churches of like faith, or start new churches. Likewise, I would not think of taking the pastorate in a Reformed Baptist Church with the idea of fixing their theology. It's just not right, and can deeply wound the sheep.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I'm afraid Calvinists are indeed causing trouble in IFB churches (and I don't mean the so-called IFBx crowd). On our last furlough we heard what is happening in Illinois. Unfortunately there is a type of young Calvinist that believes all Baptists simply must agree with them or they will know the reason why!

To ReformedBaptist: On another thread (you know which one) I mentioned this crowd of young Calvinists as full of vim, vigor and venom, and to tell the truth, I felt your opening gambit on that thread was venom. What I've seen from you since has been gracious and reasoned. Keep up the good work.

Having said that, I'll believe that these young Calvinists are not out to take over our churches, but are ready to follow the Great Commission, when I see some of them come on out to the mission field and start churches. Where are the Reformed Baptist mission boards? There are none to my knowledge, though a google search will turn up a very few missionaries that say they are Reformed Baptist. Years ago there was a Reformed Baptist in Japan down on the island of Shikoku, but he's been gone for years.

I haven't been created in Christ Jesus to start Reformed Baptist churches, IFB churches, et. I used the term RB because it helps communicate with others what I believe. Because the sign on the church doesn't read "reformed baptist" doesn't mean that Christians in the world aren't "reformed" to some degree, more or less, in their theology, and "bapstist" as it concerns their understanding of church government and baptism.

I was an interim pastor at an IFB church for 3 months. I worked for reform evey minute of it.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

That's a very sad story. I hate church splits, having suffered through one in a church my father pastored.

Calvinist pastors should minister in churches of like faith, or start new churches. Likewise, I would not think of taking the pastorate in a Reformed Baptist Church with the idea of fixing their theology. It's just not right, and can deeply wound the sheep.

Amen. When the pastor of the IFB who was leaving asked me to fill in, we had a long conversation about doctrine. One should not "sneak in unaware" to any church they know disagrees with their theology. It's unjust.

 

[Rippon]

EdS. had mentioned "The Fundamentals" and provided a link . I read some of the articles and made some notes .

A woman -- Jessie Penn-Lewis was a contributer . A Puritan's work was included .( Well , he was technically not a real Puritan since he was born too late in the 17th century ) . That was Thomas Boston ( 1676-1732 ) .

There was a submission for another deceased person -- J.C. Ryle .The beloved Bishop died before the idea of "The Fundamentals had even germinated .

From my scanning A.T. Pierson contributed the most articles . James Orr and Philip Mauro were runner-ups .

Modern Fundamentalists may be surprised at the number of Calvinists who wrote much of the material for the books . Among the Reformed : The previously mentioned J..Ryle , Orr and Boston , Thomas Spurgeon , and George S. Bishop ( kind of an A.W. Pink prototype ) .

And we know that the 1901 ASV was quoted ( in a positive light ) more often than the KJV .

 

[John of Japan]

EdS. had mentioned "The Fundamentals" and provided a link . I read some of the articles and made some notes .

A woman -- Jessie Penn-Lewis was a contributer . A Puritan's work was included .( Well , he was technically not a real Puritan since he was born too late in the 17th century ) . That was Thomas Boston ( 1676-1732 ) .

There was a submission for another deceased person -- J.C. Ryle .The beloved Bishop died before the idea of "The Fundamentals had even germinated .

From my scanning A.T. Pierson contributed the most articles . James Orr and Philip Mauro were runner-ups .

Modern Fundamentalists may be surprised at the number of Calvinists who wrote much of the material for the books . Among the Reformed : The previously mentioned J..Ryle , Orr and Boston , Thomas Spurgeon , and George S. Bishop ( kind of an A.W. Pink prototype ) .

And we know that the 1901 ASV was quoted ( in a positive light ) more often than the KJV .

Calvinists worked hand in hand with non-Calvinists in the beginning of the Fundamentalist movement. Each respected the other in their efforts to cleanse the denomination of liberalism, and neither tried to change the other--unlike some Baptist Calvinists today (not accusing anyone).

The Presbyterians failed in their efforts to cleanse their denomination, so they started a new seminary and the Bible Presbyterian denomination. But men like Machen and McIntyre were quoted with approval by many IFB men.

 

[John of Japan]

I haven't been created in Christ Jesus to start Reformed Baptist churches, IFB churches, et. I used the term RB because it helps communicate with others what I believe. Because the sign on the church doesn't read "reformed baptist" doesn't mean that Christians in the world aren't "reformed" to some degree, more or less, in their theology, and "bapstist" as it concerns their understanding of church government and baptism.

I was an interim pastor at an IFB church for 3 months. I worked for reform evey minute of it.

When you say "reform," what exactly do you mean? How would you reform an IFB church, being merely the interim pastor?

 

[Bob Alkire]

Calvinists worked hand in hand with non-Calvinists in the beginning of the Fundamentalist movement. Each respected the other in their efforts to cleanse the denomination of liberalism, and neither tried to change the other--unlike some Baptist Calvinists today (not accusing anyone).

John, You are correct. As I get older I don't remember as well as I should, but I recall at Oliver B. Greene"s , John R. Rice's and others' meetings there were folks there who crossed all the lines within the church. Within the doors of their churches they preached and taught their doctrine but outside they tryed to get the Gospel out to the lost, they would major on the fundamentals of the faith.

With that said, they did draw the line with liberals and some did with charismatics.

I also recall being at Tn. Temple in Chattanooga one time and at there chapel service they had a Presbyterians minister, and I heard later, it happen often. I'm sure the Presbyterians minister wasn't trying to change Dr. Lee's doctrine or the school's.

I believe we have lost our Christian culture in this country because of to much in fighting between Christians in front of the lost world. I have said before, most of the times when I witness to a lost person, they don't know what being saved or being lost means, they aren't sure Jesus was a real person and they know the Bible is not correct by what they have learned in school and many add by how Christians act and fight among themselves.

 

[John of Japan]

John, You are correct. As I get older I don't remember as well as I should, but I recall at Oliver B. Greene"s , John R. Rice's and others' meetings there were folks there who crossed all the lines within the church. Within the doors of their churches they preached and taught their doctrine but outside they tryed to get the Gospel out to the lost, they would major on the fundamentals of the faith.

With that said, they did draw the line with liberals and some did with charismatics.

John R. Rice and others used to preach in city-wide campaigns where everyone fundamental who believed in reaching the world for Christ would cooperate. He would even let the Pentecostals (this was before the Charismatic movement) join in, telling them, "I won't preach on baptism if you won't try to get folk to speak in tongues. Let's just win them to Christ.

Having said that, I believe the Baptist distinctives and non-denominationalism lend themselves to Fundamentalism. Baptists are already standing on the Bible as the "sole rule of faith and practice," so they are more likely to fight against liberalism than denominations such as the Methodists, etc., where you have to fight denominational control.

By the 1960's, there had been a major split between folks on the 1957 Graham NY crusade. Plus, the independent Baptist movement was growing and thriving, so John R. Rice spent his time from then on in building up our movement.

I also recall being at Tn. Temple in Chattanooga one time and at there chapel service they had a Presbyterians minister, and I heard later, it happen often. I'm sure the Presbyterians minister wasn't trying to change Dr. Lee's doctrine or the school's.

When I was at Temple (1972-1976), I remember hearing Richard Wurmbrandt preach. He wasn't Baptist, of course, and I believe he even wore a robe to preach in!

I believe we have lost our Christian culture in this country because of to much in fighting between Christians in front of the lost world. I have said before, most of the times when I witness to a lost person, they don't know what being saved or being lost means, they aren't sure Jesus was a real person and they know the Bible is not correct by what they have learned in school and many add by how Christians act and fight among themselves.

Here I'll have to differ somewhat. I believe we have lost our Christian culture in this country because of the failure of many churches to take a stand against evil. We allowed it to creep up on us, not realizing we were in a war. New Evangelicalism taught that our standards didn't matter and that we should infiltrate the liberals instead of separating from them.

Then when at last we woke up, we thought we could defeat such wickedness as abortion by demonstrations and sign carrying, not realizing it was a spiritual war. America desparately needs revival, not more social action.

I do know one thing more. I know that more Calvinism is not going to fix America. Theology does not equal revival. We need repentance and prayer in large doses. And I'm disappointed that ReformedBaptist has not had the courtesy to come back to the thread he started and answer my question five days ago about what he meant by reform in an IFB church.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Here I'll have to differ somewhat. I believe we have lost our Christian culture in this country because of the failure of many churches to take a stand against evil. We allowed it to creep up on us, not realizing we were in a war. New Evangelicalism taught that our standards didn't matter and that we should infiltrate the liberals instead of separating from them.

Then when at last we woke up, we thought we could defeat such wickedness as abortion by demonstrations and sign carrying, not realizing it was a spiritual war.

John, for the most part we agree. You said,"I believe we have lost our Christian culture in this country because of the failure of many churches to take a stand against evil. " I can't go against what you said, but from my view it has also been trying to proselyte from other churches than going with the Gospel to the lost and right next to it has been the KJO movement and right next would be the infighting between Christians and churches and with in churches. My son will not go into an IFB church due to the KJO movement and my daughter will go but not to one that is KJO are out of the so legalistic camp, due to all of the in fighting. And from my eyes you are correct, it is evil and pride and pride is evil.

But why 20 to 60 years ago, when someone witness to a lost person, they had the foundation that the Jews had when Peter preached at Pentecost? We as Christians and our churches aren't getting the Word out to the lost. All I can say is woe is me, it is easy to find fault, but am I doing my all in His power?