It's Still The Word Of God ...

[npetreley]

God's character is multi-faceted. I think the point of the OP was that there's a facet people tend to ignore, ostensibly because they don't like to deal with it, but it is every bit as important as all the others. If you really want to know God truly, then you need to deal with the things you may not like about Him. In Jonah's case, Jonah didn't want to deal with God's mercy. These days, I get the impression that most people tend to want to ignore God's righteous indignation and wrath.

The bigger message, IMO, is that it doesn't matter a whit what we like and what we don't like. Truth is truth.

 

[HankD]

God's character is multi-faceted. I think the point of the OP was that there's a facet people tend to ignore, ostensibly because they don't like to deal with it, but it is every bit as important as all the others. If you really want to know God truly, then you need to deal with the things you may not like about Him. In Jonah's case, Jonah didn't want to deal with God's mercy. These days, I get the impression that most people tend to want to ignore God's righteous indignation and wrath.

The bigger message, IMO, is that it doesn't matter a whit what we like and what we don't like. Truth is truth.

Amen

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.​

 

[Jack Matthews]

The point is , G285 , that a great many professing Christians would rail against someone who expresses these biblical items . " You're making that up ! That's not in the Bible ! God doesn't "ordain" that women , children even babies are destroyed by some decree of God ! The Lord doesn't send evil nations to punish His own people ! How dare you even so much as suggest that God doesn't care for or have pity on some people ! You mean to tell me that God told some not to pray for certain people ?! Why that's heresy !! " Things like that G285 . I just thought I would gather together a mass of biblical info and lay it out there for you all . And I will have more for you at a later time .

Those passages that you quote relate to God and his covenant for salvation with Israel, which no longer exists. It has been fulfilled in Christ. The covenant is now with individuals who place the trust for their salvation in Jesus, not through a national one. So they must be viewed in light of their fulfillment in Jesus, and salvation by grace.

God's people in the new covenant is the church. It would be difficult for him to send an evil "nation" to judge the church since it is scattered throughout the world. The church isn't judged by its works, anyway, since each individual true member of it has put on the righteousness of Christ and that's what God sees when he sees us. That's why his wrath is turned away from us. I pity those who don't have the righteousness of Christ and the indwelling spirit, because the verses you cite do indeed describe God's nature, and I sure wouldn't want to have to go out into eternity and face that.

 

[gerald285]

Hello gerald.

The Church is the Body of Christ and is where and what it is because Jesus wants it that way, the way it is is the way it was intended to be. EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

I heard a Christian once say that the Church is like a car that's run out of petrol and my thought was, "Why you beating the car it's the Drivers fault if it runs out of gas."

john.

That would be false. All one has to do is read the Revelation about the 7 churches and see that it is not always where he wants it to be. Today the church is so far from the Lord and His teachings that one could conclude that there are actually very few who claim to be part of it that really are.

 

[DQuixote]

Thank you, Jack Matthews! Finally, a word sharper than a two-edged Sword pierces the gloom!

 

[johnp.]

Hello gerald.

That would be false.

What would be false, that the Head cannot control His Body? Is this what you believe? I thought love protected? I thought He said He would never leave us. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Rom 14:4. We are here to build up not pull down.

All one has to do is read the Revelation about the 7 churches and see that it is not always where he wants it to be.

Rev 2:7 ...To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. That is me. I overcame and I have the right to eat from the tree but God did say, "And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Gen 3:22.

We must not reach out our own hand but he can be given it on the Other. Did you overcome or did Christ overcome for you?

Today the church is so far from the Lord and His teachings that one could conclude that there are actually very few who claim to be part of it that really are.

Rom 11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

The Church is the same as Israel. Not all of Israel are Israel and not all in the Church are Christians. Numbers are irrelevant, His Church is exactly what He has made it. being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Php 1:6.

He is the Good Shepherd. His flock is cared for and in the best place for grazing.

john.

 

[J.D.]

This thread is hurting my feelings. Moderators, where are you????:tear:

 

[EdSutton]

This thread is hurting my feelings. Moderators, where are you????:tear:

Outta' curiosity, do you think something unBiblical has been advocated here, somehow? Or some false doctrine put forth? Or some rule broken, here? I suggest that much more grace has been shown posters on this thread, than on many I've seen on the BB, over the last 15 mos. that I've been a member. I did not see anything close to resembling a personal attack, in any form, and I just reread the entire thread.

Ed

 

[HankD]

I am thinking that JD's statement was tongue-in-cheek, well I hope so...

Someone mentioned the Book of Revelation.
The "wrath of God" is used several times and is summed up perhaps in the following Scripture:

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.​

Here is an example/model of Paul's preaching related to God's essential nature:​

Acts 24
24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.​

First : faith in Christ
then : righteousness, temperance
then : judgment to come

Result : "Felix trembled"

The Spirit of God is in the world reproving of sin, the Gospel is presented and if there is no positive response then ultimately "judgment to come" is preached.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

Of course those who are in the Body of Christ are safe from "the wrath to come" but certainly even we must fear our Father if we walk unworthy of our high calling in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.​

Hebrews 12

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?​

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.​

Personally, I am comforted by this promise; that He watches over me as a Father and will keep me from my worst enemy: myself.


HankD

 

[skypair]

donnA, npeterely, rippon,

it does appear God choses some for destruction doesn't it.

Wow! You guys are gonna be tremendous recruits for the Great Thyatiran (tribulation) Inquisition TinyTim alludes to!! (Rev 6: 9-11, 20:4, Zech 11:9).

Calvin had much the same thought in Geneva, didn't he. But did he or you happen to notice that Jesus said, "My kingdom is NOT of this world else would my servants fight for Me."

Or are you "on board" with the Catholics (Thyatira) who thinks that you are the spiritual and political kingdom of Christ? of Peter's "two swords" error of sacralism?

skypair

 

[J.D.]

Outta' curiosity, do you think something unBiblical has been advocated here, somehow? Or some false doctrine put forth? Or some rule broken, here? I suggest that much more grace has been shown posters on this thread, than on many I've seen on the BB, over the last 15 mos. that I've been a member. I did not see anything close to resembling a personal attack, in any form, and I just reread the entire thread.

Ed

It was sarcasm. I meant to go back and edit in a comment so everyone would know that, but I got distracted by a phone call and forgot. It was my attempt at a subtle protest for the closing of another thread.

Unfortunately some fundamentalists just can not stand the idea that someone may have a different opinion about something than they have. They would rather see a conversation squashed than to learn from it.

 

[Rippon]

This Is The "Later Time" I Referenced In Post #4

I'm back again with my snippets . I actually had posted the following several weeks ago , but it vanished . So , I'm back at the keyboard once more . Again , sometimes I'll quote a whole verse , sometimes a phrase , sometimes a summary . IOW , the essence of a passage .

The Lord softens hearts at times , but not for salvation purposes in the following .
Ex.11:3 ( The Lord made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people ... )
Ex. 12:36 The Lord had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people ...

The Lord hardens hearts for His purposes . Deut. 2:30 But Sihon king of heshbon refused to let us pass through . For the Lord your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands , as he has now done .
Joshua 11:20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel , so that he might destroy them totally , exterminating them without mercy , as the Lord had commanded Moses .

The Lord causes confusion : Ex. 23:27 I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter ...
2 Sam. 15:31 David prayed , " O lord , turn Ahithopel's counsel into foolishness. " And sure enough in 2 Sam. 17:14 ... for the Lord had determined to frustrate the good advice of Ahithopel in order to bring disaster on Absalom . ( See 1 Kings 12:15 for something similiar .) In Judges 7:22 ...The Lord caused the men throughout the camp to turn on each other with their swords ...

God sends evil spirits to do His bidding .
Judges 9:23 God sent an evil spirit ...
1 Sam. 16 an evil spirit "from the Lord" is sent to torment Saul . See verses 14,15 and 23 .
1 Sam.18:10 ... an evil spirit from from God came forcefully upon Saul
1 Sam. 19:9 an evil spirit from the Lord came upon Saul

In 2 Sam. 24:1 Here the Lord incited David to take a census of Israel -- even though it was sinful to number the people .

In 1 kings 22:19-23 the Lord put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets . In verse 20 the Lord had said " Who will entice Ahab ?" In verse 22 the Lord told one lying spirit that he would succeed -- "Go and do it ."

In Job 42:11 it says in this concluding chapter that " all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him ."

Psalm 105:25 whose hearts he turned to hate his people , to conspire against his servants .

Jer.51:1 ... See, I will stir up the spirit of a destroyer...

Ez. 7:24 I will bring the most wicked of the nations to take possession of their houses ...

Ez. 14:9 and if a prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy , I the Lord have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel .

In Ezekiel 21 the Lord uses Babylon as His sword of judgment -- though the Babylonians were a wicked people . I had already mentioned in my OP Habakkuk 1:6 ,12 .

In Idsaiah 10 the Lord uses Asyria as His rod of wrath . He employs them as His personal club . The Lord does his reckoning through their agency . They seize , loot snatch and plunder etc. Then God punishes the king of Asyria and his men for those deeds -- because they were prideful .

 

[Rippon]

I thought I would bump this . This thread is related to another on "Calvinism and Free Will" . A poster named npetreley might find this helpful . Actually those who are against his understanding of the Bible in some areas need to see this .

 

[npetreley]

I thought I would bump this . This thread is related to another on "Calvinism and Free Will" . A poster named npetreley might find this helpful . Actually those who are against his understanding of the Bible in some areas need to see this .

Thank you very much! I had forgotten about this thread. I think scripture speaks for itself, here.

Hopefully, those who are fighting scripture in the "Calvinism and Free Will" thread will come over here and turn all these passages into symbolic visions and parables and try to explain them away. That should keep them busy for a while so they have less time to bring false charges against their brothers and make trouble for those of us who believe the Bible says what it says.

 

[psalms109:31]

even if many of these things are not that familiar to many of you it seems . I'll be doing my snippet routine again . Sometimes I'll quote a whole verse or normally summarize the passage ( possibly including several verses ) . In other words , I'll try to give the essence .

In Numbers 16 Korah , Dathan , Abiram and their families including their little ones were killed by the Lord -- the earth opened and swallowed them .

Deut. 7:2 -- The Lord said to destroy them [ other nations ] totally ... show them no mercy .

Deut. 28:63 -- It will please Him to ruin and destroy you .

Deut. 28:49 -- the Lord will bring a nation against you (50) a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young -- [throughout the rest of the chapter it goes into graphic detail as to the horrors that will ensue ]

1 Sam. 15:3 -- The Lord said not to spare them [ the Amalekites ] ; put to death men and women , children and infants

2 Kings 24:4 -- the Lord was not willing to forgive

Is. 13:16 -- Their infants will be dashed to pices before their eyes (17) I will stir against them the Medes (18) THEY WILL HAVE NO MERCY ON INFANTS NOR WILL THEY LOOK WITH COMPASSION ON CHILDREN .( I did not mean to capitalize , but will leave it as it is anyway )

Ps. 137:8,9 --happy isd he who repays you for what you have done to us -- he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks

Hosea 13:16 -- I will have no compassion

Is. 27:11 -- their Maker has no compassion on them , and their Creator shows them no favor .

Jer. 14:11 -- [ The Lord said ] Do not pray for the well-being of this people .

Jer. 16:5 -- I have withdrawn my blessing , my love and my pity from this people -- declares the Lord .

Jer. 16:13 -- I will show you no favor

Jer. 44:27 -- for I am watching over them for harm , not for good ...

Ez. 7:24 -- I will bring the most wickd of the nations to take possession of their houses ...

Ez. 8:18 -- I will deal with them in anger , I will not look on them with pity or spare them .

Ez. 9:5 -- ... kill , without showing pity or compassion [ The Lord is speaking ]

Ez. 9:6 -- Slaughter old men , young men , and maidens , women and children .

Ez. 9:10 -- So I will not look on them with pity or spare them

Hos. 13:14 -- I will have no compassion

AMOS 6:14 -- I will stir up a nation against you , O HOUSE OF ISRAEL

Amos 9:4 -- I will fix my eyes upon them for evil and not for good

Habakkuk 1:6 -- I am raising up the Babylonians , that ruthless and impetuous people

Hab. 1:12 -- O LORD , you have appointed them to execute judgment ; O Rock , you have ordained them to perish

Zechariah 8:10 -- I had turned every man against his neighbor

Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

I can see here us fighting and bickering amoungs ourselfs, between brothers and sisters and we are the one's that are suppose to bring envy amoung Israel!!!

Yes all unbelievers will be destroyed as the scripture teaches.

Who cares about those who can kill the body. I have no fear of you all, because you cannot destoy my soul, only God can.

As the scripture teaches.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

This is what those passages you gave teaches us,

Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

What is more important to you your theories or bringing men to repentance?

 

[Rippon]

My theories ?! Ps. get a grip ! I had cited a mass of verses . Which ones are merely theoretical ? You have some explaining to do .

 

[psalms109:31]

every word

Without using every word that comes from the mouth of God it just theories.

Anyone can use a bunch of scripture to say anything.

Who cares if the dead are being destroyed, they are only bodies what is important is the soul.

Those scripture should be used to bring people to repentance, not to prove your theories.


Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

I can see here us fighting and bickering amoungs ourselfs, between brothers and sisters and we are the one's that are suppose to bring envy amoung Israel!!!

Yes all unbelievers will be destroyed as the scripture teaches.

Who cares about those who can kill the body. I have no fear of you all, because you cannot destoy my soul, only God can.

As the scripture teaches.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

This is what those passages you gave teaches us,

Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

What is more important to you your theories or bringing men to repentance?

At the end result of at that happen God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth even if you don't believe it or not.

 

[J.D.]

Without using every word that comes from the mouth of God it just theories.

Anyone can use a bunch of scripture to say anything.

Who cares if the dead are being destroyed, they are only bodies what is important is the soul.

Those scripture should be used to bring people to repentance, not to prove your theories.


Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

I can see here us fighting and bickering amoungs ourselfs, between brothers and sisters and we are the one's that are suppose to bring envy amoung Israel!!!

Yes all unbelievers will be destroyed as the scripture teaches.

Who cares about those who can kill the body. I have no fear of you all, because you cannot destoy my soul, only God can.

As the scripture teaches.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

This is what those passages you gave teaches us,

Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

What is more important to you your theories or bringing men to repentance?

At the end result of at that happen God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth even if you don't believe it or not.

Those verses you posted are pretty good. Which side of this debate are you on?

 

[npetreley]

Those verses you posted are pretty good. Which side of this debate are you on?

I think he's in some other debate.

 

[J.D.]

I think he's in some other debate.

It's always easier to win a debate when your opponent provides arguments that support your views, isn't it?

Of course, you and I know what he's really trying to say - his theory is that God doesn't want to condemn the reprobate - he wants to save them. Okay fine, Psalms, have your theory - but can you support your theory with a reasonable exegesis of some of the scriptures that Rippon presented?