I've Given Up Dispensationalism...

[TCGreek]

While working through Dwight J. Pentecost's Things To Come, I became disillusioned with Dispensationalism, especially a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

I've moved into the Historic Premillennial camp (Spurgeon, Ladd, Grudem, Erickson; just to name few)

 

[OldRegular]

While working through Dwight J. Pentecost's Things To Come, I became disillusioned with Dispensationalism, especially a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

I've moved into the Historic Dispensational camp (Spurgeon, Ladd, Grudem, Erickson; just to name few)

Don't you mean Historic Premillennial Camp?

 

[TCGreek]

Don't you mean Historic Premillennial Camp?

Thanks, OR.

 

[Tom Butler]

Seems to me that the lower-case camp is correct. If not, Old Regular, will you enlighten me?

 

[Deacon]

Obviously TC corrected his typo after OR noted it.

Ya think it might have been...
...the Hysterical Premillennial camp?
or
the Historic Premillennial chimp?? :laugh:

While working through Dwight J. Pentecost's Things To Come, I became disillusioned with Dispensationalism, especially a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

I've moved into the Historic Premillennial camp (Spurgeon, Ladd, Grudem, Erickson; just to name few)

So...
how to break it to the congregation...
... perhaps announce it on the BB?

I'd be curious to know what some of your church members think.

For a long time I've though that those of us that are not in an eldership position have much greater flexability when it comes to changing and/or developing our theological positions.

I'm slowly working through some of these positions myself.

Rob

 

[swaimj]

I became disillusioned with Dispensationalism, especially a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Perhaps you could cite some of the flaws in Pentecost's reasoning that you detected. You've informed us that you are "disillusioned" but have not told us why or the process that you wrestled through.

 

[saturneptune]

While working through Dwight J. Pentecost's Things To Come, I became disillusioned with Dispensationalism, especially a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

I've moved into the Historic Premillennial camp (Spurgeon, Ladd, Grudem, Erickson; just to name few)

But I thought the Left Behind series was an Inspired writing.

 

[OldRegular]

Seems to me that the lower-case camp is correct. If not, Old Regular, will you enlighten me?

I don't care whether it is lower or upper case camp. I was pointing out that
there is no Historic "Dispensational" camp. At least not one to which Spurgeon or Ladd belonged.

 

[OldRegular]

But I thought the Left Behind series was an Inspired writing.

Only in the sense that they made a lot of money from the gullible public.

 

[OldRegular]

While working through Dwight J. Pentecost's Things To Come, I became disillusioned with Dispensationalism, especially a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

I've moved into the Historic Premillennial camp (Spurgeon, Ladd, Grudem, Erickson; just to name few)

Congratulations for moving closer to the truth. However, Mudd may be added to your name on this Forum!

 

[Allan]

While working through Dwight J. Pentecost's Things To Come, I became disillusioned with Dispensationalism, especially a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

I've moved into the Historic Premillennial camp (Spurgeon, Ladd, Grudem, Erickson; just to name few)

I'm curious if you still hold to the Premil view (as Spurgeon did) of Israel being restored to their own land and that a king will rule over them?

This was noted in another thread:

"I wish never to learn the art of tearing God's meaning out of His own words. If there be anything clear and plain, the literal sense and meaning of this passage — a meaning not to be spirited or spiritualised away — must be evident that both the two and the ten tribes of Israel are to be restored to their own land, and that a king is to rule over them." ---Charles Spurgeon, on Ezekiel 37

I will note this as well from Spurgeon.org from "Spurgeon and the Nation of Isreal"(this work, is somewhat extensive on various views):

Spurgeon and the Restoration of Israel

Perhaps the clearest and most significant statement by Spurgeon as it relates to the restoration of the Jews to the land, was made in an address to the British Society for the Propagation of the Gospel Amongst the Jews.[47] Delivered at the Metropolitan Tabernacle on June 16, 1864, Spurgeon preached on "The Restoration and Conversion of the Jews" and stated:

There will be a native government again; there will again be the form of a body politic; a state shall be incorporated, and a king shall reign. Israel has now become alienated from her own land. Her sons, though they can never forget the sacred dust of Palestine, yet die at a hopeless distance from her consecrated shores. But it shall not be so for ever, for her sons shall again rejoice in her: her land shall be called Beulah, for as a young man marrieth a virgin so shall her sons marry her. "I will place you in your own land," is God's promise to them . . . They are to have a national prosperity which shall make them famous; nay, so glorious shall they be that Egypt, and Tyre, and Greece, and Rome, shall all forget their glory in the greater splendour of the throne of David . . . I there be anything clear and plain, the literal sense and meaning of this passage [Ezekiel 37:1-10]—a meaning not to be spirited or spiritualized away—must be evident that both the two and the ten tribes of Israel are to be restored to their own land, and that a king is to rule over them.[48]

And then a little further down it states :

He clearly linked that restoration together with the Jews national acceptance of Christ as their Messiah. "It is certain that the Jews, as a people, will yet own Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of David as their King, and that they will return to their own land, and they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the old cities, the desolations of many generations."[54] Again he states:

The hour is approaching, when the tribes shall go up to their own country; when Judea, so long a howling wilderness, shall once more blossom like the rose; when, if the temple itself be not restored, yet on Zion's hill shall be raised some Christian building, where the chants of solemn praise shall be heard as erst of the old Psalms of David were sung in the Tabernacle . . .I think we do not attach sufficient importance to the restoration of the Jews. We do not think enough about it. But certainly, if there is anything promised in the Bible it is this. I imagine that you cannot read the Bible without seeing clearly that there is to be an actual restoration of the Children of Israel . . . For when the Jews are restored, the fullness of the Gentiles shall be gathered in; and as soon as they return, then Jesus will come upon Mount Zion with his ancients gloriously, and the halcyon days of the millennium shall then dawn; we shall then know every man to be a brother and a friend; Christ shall rule with universal sway.[55]

Israel's place in the kingdom was viewed by Spurgeon to clearly be by God's grace and a fulfillment of prophecy. There would be a national conversion and Israel would enter into God's salvation as a member of the church, as we have already noted in his disputations with Darby and dispensationalism. However, Israel would be more than just another nation, they were the nation from which the King came and where the King reigned the world from:

If we read the Scripture's aright the Jews have a great deal to do with this world's history. They shall be gathered in; Messiah shall come, the Messiah they are looking for—the same Messiah who came once shall come again—shall come as they expected him to come the first time. They then thought he would come a prince to reign over them, and so he will when he comes again. He will come to be king of the Jews, and to reign over his people most gloriously; for when he comes Jew and Gentile shall have equal privileges, though there shall yet be some distinction afforded to that royal family from whose loins Jesus came; for he shall sit upon the throne of his father David, and unto him shall be gathered all nations.[56]

And then this part seemed interesting as well

Regarding the restoration of national Israel to its land Spurgeon consistently and clearly taught to the following key points:

1.Israel as a nation will come to faith in Christ.
2.Israel will have a national or geo-political identity.
3.The political system will be a monarchy, "a king shall reign"
4.Israel will be in the Promised Land[58]
5.The borders will correspond to the promises given to Abraham and David.
6.Israel will hold a special place among the nations in the millennial kingdom.
7.However, Israel remains spiritually part of the church.
8.There will be a national prosperity that will be the admiration of the world
9.That the prophecies of the Old Testament should not be handled in a non-literal fashion

Secondary features, which Spurgeon speculates as possibilities, are as follows:

1.During the millennial kingdom there may be a temple or "Christian Structure" built on the Temple Mount for worship of God.
2.During the millennium there may be some forms of Old Testament ceremonial adherence (Sabbaths, News Moon, etc.), but that those forms will be modified to be appropriate for the church.

Now he does hold that Israel will be included into the church but he also hold to a literal bring back, and setting up of the Jewish nation which shall declare Him to be their God.

I was just curious as to your take on this aspect with regard to the premil portion?

 

[Tom Bryant]

I don't know if the OP wants to turn this into a thread supporting his position. But I was wondering about a question that was asked about informing the church of a change in position and if this was a big deal to the church?

I am pre-mill, pretrib, but I am not going to argue it, but was wondering about working thru the details with the church.

 

[Allan]

I don't know if the OP wants to turn this into a thread supporting his position. But I was wondering about a question that was asked about informing the church of a change in position and if this was a big deal to the church?

I am pre-mill, pretrib, but I am not going to argue it, but was wondering about working thru the details with the church.

I'm not asking him to defend his position. It is just that many uninformed do not understand that the premil position does in fact hold that Israel is seen as a Nation and the promises made to it in the OT will be fulfilled and that they are indeed a Nation in the Mil-reign. I was showing Spurgeon, as a Historic Premil, held to this same view (including the possiblitly of sacrifices being made during Mil-reign, etc..) He was as completely opposed to the ideas of postmil, and Amil as he was against early dispensationalism complete seperation of the church and Israel throughout all time. (which very few dipsy's now hold)

I was only wondering his position on such, as he is now taking up Historic Premil. Since dispensationalism is based upon Historic Premil, it really isn't to much of a shift to worry about in his church with the exception of a few aspects.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Sorry, Allan, I didn't think you were asking him to defend his position. I was wondering the same thing as you. Just didn't word it as well.

 

[TCGreek]

Obviously TC corrected his typo after OR noted it.

Ya think it might have been...
...the Hysterical Premillennial camp?
or
the Historic Premillennial chimp?? :laugh:


So...
how to break it to the congregation...
... perhaps announce it on the BB?

I'd be curious to know what some of your church members think.

For a long time I've though that those of us that are not in an eldership position have much greater flexability when it comes to changing and/or developing our theological positions.

I'm slowly working through some of these positions myself.

Rob

I'm the lead pastor of a new work. Go figure! :thumbs:

 

[TCGreek]

I'm curious if you still hold to the Premil view (as Spurgeon did) of Israel being restored to their own land and that a king will rule over them?

This was noted in another thread:


I will note this as well from Spurgeon.org from "Spurgeon and the Nation of Isreal"(this work, is somewhat extensive on various views):

And then a little further down it states :


And then this part seemed interesting as well




Now he does hold that Israel will be included into the church but he also hold to a literal bring back, and setting up of the Jewish nation which shall declare Him to be their God.

I was just curious as to your take on this aspect with regard to the premil portion?

Let's just put it this way: God is not done with ethnic Israel. :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

Let's just put it this way: God is not done with ethnic Israel. :thumbs:

Cool , I was just curious on that topic.

 

[Jim1999]

Mr. Spurgeon was a great preacher in his time, but he was not perfect. We do allow some to propagate this pre-mil dream.

Israel, the present state, is a long ways off even coming close to their own historic beliefs let alone adopt Christian beliefs. They are just another country in this sad world.

The local church is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant, the body of Christ and embraces the only hope for this world.

Cheers,

Jim

Panmil forever!

 

[gb93433]

No ...ism is inspired by God. So why waste one second studying any of them when we have enough trouble understanding scripture and knowing it 100%? However there are those who would spend their time studying an ...ism in an effort to "get a handle" on the "correct" interpretation. When it is nothing more than an attempted shortcut.

 

[OldRegular]

Mr. Spurgeon was a great preacher in his time, but he was not perfect. We do allow some to propagate this pre-mil dream.

Israel, the present state, is a long ways off even coming close to their own historic beliefs let alone adopt Christian beliefs. They are just another country in this sad world.

The local church is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant, the body of Christ and embraces the only hope for this world.

Cheers,

Jim

Panmil forever!

I agree with Spurgeon on his doctrine of Salvation, I disagree with him on his eschatology. I agree that the local church is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. Beyond that Jesus Christ the fulfillment of the promise in Eden and is the only hope for the world.