I've Given Up Dispensationalism...

[swaimj]

Pilgrim 2009, I disagree. The promise of the land was given to Abraham as a part of the Abrahamic covenant. That covenant is unconditional. In the future, Israel will possess the land.

God promised Abraham a land, a seed, and a blessing. The blessing is salvation through the promised Messiah. This blessing is in the process of being fulfilled. Certainly Messiah has come, but the gathering of people to Him continues. The seed is being fulfilled as people still become children of Abraham by faith, and as his physical descendants continue as a distinct people upon the earth. The land that God promised will yet belong to Abraham's physical seed.

Yes, the Jews in the OT dwelt in the land based upon their conditional obedience and because of their disobedience they were cast out of the land. However, God will bring the Jewish people to complete obedience in the future and he will restore their land to them. This is what God promised Abraham unconditionally. It will be fulfilled. If God does not keep his promise, then he is a liar. That cannot be for the book of Hebrews is clear: God cannot lie.

 

[OldRegular]

Old Regular, it is not a matter of a theological interpretation, it is a matter of a simple concept. God made promises to the fathers. If he does not keep them, he is a liar. However, the book of Hebrews says that God CANNOT lie, therefore, I do not think that anyone on this board holds that God is a liar. I am certainly not calling God a liar. Your inability to understand such a simple concept and such a simple argument really calls into question your ability to understand more complicated matters.

I will begin by saying that I understand that most people on this Forum are dispensationalists. I believe that doctrine is false, the invention of John Darby and C I. Scofield. However, it is possible you and they are correct and I am wrong. However, you have never read where I say God is a liar because my understanding of His Word is incorrect. I doubt that you would find anyone on this Forum of Covenant persuasion who would use the word liar in any reference to God. If they have or do I would tell them the same thing I am telling you: They are guilty of Blasphemy. God has never promised any of us perfect or infallible understand of His mind.

You are simply ignorant of Scripture. It is true that Hebrews tells us that God cannot lie but I already knew that. Lying is not consistent with the attributes of Holy God.

Hebrews 6:18. That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.

The Book of Hebrews also tells us in regard to Abraham and His descendants:

Hebrews 11:8-19
8. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18. Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19. Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

You might read verses 10 and 13-16. Verse 10 tells us that Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker is God. Verses 13-16 tell us that those who sprang from Abraham were strangers and pilgrims on this earth and looked for a better country, a heavenly country. Verse 15 states they had no desire for the country from which they came, the earthly country you are so insistent that God will restore to Abraham physical seed.

The Apostle Paul in Galatians restricts the seed to whom the promise was made to Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The only physical descendants of Abraham who will receive any of the promises are those who are in Jesus Christ. Paul states further:

Galatians 3:27-29
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

All those who have been chosen unto salvation in Jesus Christ can be considered the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. It is these who look for a better country, a heavenly country, the New Heavens and New Earth of Revelation 21, 22; Isaiah 65:17 and 66:22. and Hebrews 11:10, 13-16.

Once again, because you cannot understand Scripture, because you arrogantly assume you have infallible knowledge of the mind of God you have blasphemed God by saying "If he does not keep them, he is a liar."

You may deny it but what you are saying is that if God does not conform to your limited understanding of His Word, His Written Revelation He is a liar. That is blasphemy of the worst sort. May God have mercy on you.

 

[pilgrim2009]

Pilgrim 2009, I disagree. The promise of the land was given to Abraham as a part of the Abrahamic covenant. That covenant is unconditional. In the future, Israel will possess the land.

This is completely in error.

{Hebrews 11:15-16}KJB

And truly,if they had BEEN MINDFUL OF THAT COUNTRY from whence THEY CAME OUT,THEY MIGHT HAVE HAD OPPORTUNITY TO RETURN.

But now THEY DESIRE A BETTER COUNTRY,that is,AN HEAVENLY:Wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God:FOR HE HATH PREPARED FOR THEM A CITY

Back to Hebrews 11:9-10 Abraham sojourned in the land of promise and he looked for a city which hath foundations whose builder and maker is God.

You see first off the land was upon conditions always with IF`s conditional upon obedience and the Bible says when Christ returns this earth will be destroyed by fire.{2nd Peter 3:11}and Peter being a JEW also knew this earth would be destroyed and he himself looked for the promise of God for a NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH {2nd Peter 3:13}.

Dispensationalist seem to think the Jew will be restored to the land during a1000 year millennium as an earthly people and the Church will be in heaven as a heavenly people.Peter a JEW was expecting the NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH shortly after the return of Christ and he says so in his epistle.This is scofieldism and not what the bible teaches.

Revelation is a book of symbols and the 1000 years in Rev 20 is symbolic of the Church age {i.e.along period of time} and the 1st Resurrection is a spiritual resurrection and the binding of satan with a literal chain was symbolic of his power being limited at the Cross of Christ {1st John 3:8b}

This doctrine was created for political reasons in the 1800`s .

Go to nicene council and get the dvd the late great planet church and the dvd against dispensationalism and you will see the undeniable proof that the end time doctrines being taught today was unknown for 1800 years and in fact has never been taught in the bible.

Dispensationalism was first created as a counter-attack on the reformation and was only taught within Roman Catholicism from the 1530`s until it was planted into the protestant churches in the early 1800`s.

God promised Abraham a land, a seed, and a blessing. The blessing is salvation through the promised Messiah. This blessing is in the process of being fulfilled. Certainly Messiah has come, but the gathering of people to Him continues. The seed is being fulfilled as people still become children of Abraham by faith, and as his physical descendants continue as a distinct people upon the earth. The land that God promised will yet belong to Abraham's physical seed.

You are partly right except about the land part.

Yes, the Jews in the OT dwelt in the land based upon their conditional obedience and because of their disobedience they were cast out of the land. However, God will bring the Jewish people to complete obedience in the future and he will restore their land to them. This is what God promised Abraham unconditionally. It will be fulfilled. If God does not keep his promise, then he is a liar. That cannot be for the book of Hebrews is clear: God cannot lie.

No God is not a liar and the Scriptures have been twisted by the early developers of dispensationalism for political reasons for Rome.The kingdom of God and of Heaven is the same kingdom and God has only one plan for people whether Jew or Gentile to enter it {John 3:1-6}the same offer Jesus made to Nicodemus a Jew.

 

[Benefactor]

Only in the sense that they made a lot of money from the gullible public.

So what of the millions of dollars made by those that spin your new belief such as the popular writer in the SBC "Beth Moore"? She believes like you do now therefore are you willing to accuse her of having a "god" of money and condemn her too?

Now, I don't know if you agree with Liberty U. or not or Southern Baptist or not or others who are HP or DP for we are finding them in many different camps of conviction. For the record a very large sum of money was given to LU as a result of the Left Behind books. Are you jealous of this and is this not a form of ad holmium approach or sour grapes as in Aesop’s fables?

Also, are you Calvinist?

 

[OldRegular]

So what of the millions of dollars made by those that spin your new belief such as the popular writer in the SBC "Beth Moore"? She believes like you do now therefore are you willing to accuse her of having a "god" of money and condemn her too?

Now, I don't know if you agree with Liberty U. or not or Southern Baptist or not or others who are HP or DP for we are finding them in many different camps of conviction. For the record a very large sum of money was given to LU as a result of the Left Behind books. Are you jealous of this and is this not a form of ad holmium approach or sour grapes as in Aesop’s fables?

Also, are you Calvinist?

Heh sport! Before you start making what some on this forum call "ad hominem" attacks read a little more of what I post. I have no idea what HP or DP are. I don't read Beth Moore so have no idea who she is. And what in the world are you talking about when you say [bold mine]:

So what of the millions of dollars made by those that spin your new belief such as the popular writer in the SBC "Beth Moore"?

Your entire post is insulting and certainly ignorant as far as I am concerned.

 

[Benefactor]

Heh sport! Before you start making what some on this forum call "ad hominem" attacks read a little more of what I post. I have no idea what HP or DP are. I don't read Beth Moore so have no idea who she is. And what in the world are you talking about when you say [bold mine]:


Your entire post is insulting and certainly ignorant as far as I am concerned.

OK, let me see you made a comment concerning LaHay's books and money. Beth Moore is HP - Historical Premillennial and sell a "bunch" of books and bible study aids. She is OK in my book I just happened to disagree with here on her HP view, which you said was your new view. DP is dispensational Premillennialism. I hate typing out the words but fare question for clarification.

"bold mine" means that I added the emphasis to something that I did not originate. Its a courtesy thing.

Your last statement is without specifics. Let’s deal with facts when words like "insult" and "ignorant" are used that way we are dealing with something tangible to sink our teen into.

But, back to Lahay's books: Your statement on the money made by the books is "ad holmium” they are unfair and misleading. Theologians of a verity of walks of our faith sell a lot of books, so it is unfair to make that kind of inference because you changed your view of theology. It’s OK to change but not ok to frame the other as some kind of opportunist.

Kind is a good word would you agree, even if I think you left the truth, now that is an opinion, not a personal attack.

 

[TCGreek]

OK, let me see you made a comment concerning LaHay's books and money. Beth Moore is HP - Historical Premillennial and sell a "bunch" of books and bible study aids. She is OK in my book I just happened to disagree with here on her HP view, which you said was your new view. DP is dispensational Premillennialism. I hate typing out the words but fare question for clarification.

"bold mine" means that I added the emphasis to something that I did not originate. Its a courtesy thing.

Your last statement is without specifics. Let’s deal with facts when words like "insult" and "ignorant" are used that way we are dealing with something tangible to sink our teen into.

But, back to Lahay's books: Your statement on the money made by the books is "ad holmium” they are unfair and misleading. Theologians of a verity of walks of our faith sell a lot of books, so it is unfair to make that kind of inference because you changed your view of theology. It’s OK to change but not ok to frame the other as some kind of opportunist.

Kind is a good word would you agree, even if I think you left the truth, now that is an opinion, not a personal attack.

Good to know Beth Moore is Historic Premillennial.

A number of our seminary profs are.

 

[Benefactor]

Good to know Beth Moore is Historic Premillennial.

A number of our seminary profs are.

I was curious one day and looked at one of her books on the subject in LW stoore. To my dismay she left out dispensational premillennialism. She is a very popular Bible Teacher and in large demand, in SBC circles. I think she graduated from New Orleans Baptist Seminary, don't hold me to that. I think Southwestern is the best of all the SBC schools, but my real choice is LU, Lynchburg, Va.

 

[Amy.G]

Good to know Beth Moore is Historic Premillennial.

A number of our seminary profs are.

So TCG, what in particular changed your mind against Dispensationalism?

 

[TCGreek]

I was curious one day and looked at one of her books on the subject in LW stoore. To my dismay she left out dispensational premillennialism. She is a very popular Bible Teacher and in large demand, in SBC circles. I think she graduated from New Orleans Baptist Seminary, don't hold me to that. I think Southwestern is the best of all the SBC schools, but my real choice is LU, Lynchburg, Va.

Beth Moore doesn't have a seminary degree (see her website)

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is the place to be.

LU is not SBC.

 

[Benefactor]

Beth Moore doesn't have a seminary degree (see her website)

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is the place to be.

LU is not SBC.

I will check it out. Just read it. Thanks

I know LU isn't SBC

Some 30 pulse years ago one of my close friends and I visited the SBTS campus. At that time the OT department was liberal and the NT was conservative. Actually the only SBC seminary that was still conservative at that time was Southwestern, yet I understand it has had its problems too.

Your must be a horse racing fan to like SBTS, it can't be because of their Calvinistic leanings and Dr. Mohler.

 

[TCGreek]

So TCG, what in particular changed your mind against Dispensationalism?

Too much exegetical gymnastics.

Christ died to create one new humanity of both Jews and Gentiles.

No need to maintain a distinction between Israel and the church.

Besides, Jesus must be seen as the climactic fulfillment of what God promised OT Israel.

He became the new and improved Israel, for lack of a better expression.

And so on...

 

[OldRegular]

OK, let me see you made a comment concerning LaHay's books and money. Beth Moore is HP - Historical Premillennial and sell a "bunch" of books and bible study aids. She is OK in my book I just happened to disagree with here on her HP view, which you said was your new view. DP is dispensational Premillennialism. I hate typing out the words but fare[sp] question for clarification.

"bold mine" means that I added the emphasis to something that I did not originate. Its a courtesy thing.

Your last statement is without specifics. Let’s deal with facts when words like "insult" and "ignorant" are used that way we are dealing with something tangible to sink our teen[sp] into.

But, back to Lahay's[sp] books: Your statement on the money made by the books is "ad holmium”[sp] they are unfair and misleading. Theologians of a verity[?] of walks of our faith sell a lot of books, so it is unfair to make that kind of inference because you changed your view of theology. It’s OK to change but not ok to frame the other as some kind of opportunist.

Kind is a good word would you agree, even if I think you left the truth, now that is an opinion, not a personal attack.

Sport you are confused. I have not changed my views on anything. Apparently you do not know the difference between OldRegular and TCGreek. I am not dispensational or Historic Premillennial and never have been.

As far as Beth Moore I do not read her books, don't know what her theology or eschatology is and really don't care. If she is Historic Premillennial she is much closer to the truth than dispensationalism and to be commended. Hopefully as she grows in the faith she will recognize that the 1000 years in Revelation 20 is referring to the present age.

I disagree with totally with dispensational theology and eschatology. I have no problem with dispensationalists writing a commentary on any book in the Bible including Revelation. If they believe what they say those qualified should certainly write such books. What they write may be fictional but it is not deliberately so.

However, I find the sensationalism and commercialism of the fictional Left Behind series by Lehaye and Jenkins thoroughly disgusting. These fictional books played on the fears of people who were ignorant of what Scripture teaches about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. They even went so far as to bring out special editions to scare little children; disgusting and as far as I am concerned unChristian.

 

[Benefactor]

Sport you are confused. I have not changed my views on anything. Apparently you do not know the difference between OldRegular and TCGreek. I am not dispensational or Historic Premillennial and never have been.

As far as Beth Moore I do not read her books, don't know what her theology or eschatology is and really don't care. If she is Historic Premillennial she is much closer to the truth than dispensationalism and to be commended. Hopefully as she grows in the faith she will recognize that the 1000 years in Revelation 20 is referring to the present age.

I disagree with totally with dispensational theology and eschatology. I have no problem with dispensationalists writing a commentary on any book in the Bible including Revelation. If they believe what they say those qualified should certainly write such books. What they write may be fictional but it is not deliberately so.

However, I find the sensationalism and commercialism of the fictional Left Behind series by Lehaye and Jenkins thoroughly disgusting. These fictional books played on the fears of people who were ignorant of what Scripture teaches about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. They even went so far as to bring out special editions to scare little children; disgusting and as far as I am concerned unChristian.

My apologies’ on the theology part. What exactly do you believe? Are you amillennial

 

[webdog]

So TCG, what in particular changed your mind against Dispensationalism?

Like with his soteriology...reading the works of man

 

[webdog]

Too much exegetical gymnastics.

Christ died to create one new humanity of both Jews and Gentiles.

Then God's promises to Israel failed.

No need to maintain a distinction between Israel and the church.

...yet Scripture does just that (Romans 11)

Besides, Jesus must be seen as the climactic fulfillment of what God promised OT Israel.

Wrong. Paul addresses this very notion in Romans 9 - 11.

He became the new and improved Israel, for lack of a better expression.

Is this the exegetical gymnastics you speak of?

 

[Martin]

Some are saying in effect that if their interpretation of Scripture is incorrect, though they do not admit to that possibility, then God did not keep His promises and, therefore, God is a liar. Thus they are claiming to haveinfallibly knowledge of the mind of God. Something that even the writers of the Revelation of God did not claim. I assume you are aware of that fact.

I think you are reading too much into what some are saying. I'm not aware of any dispensationalist who believes their understanding of future events is infallible.

 

[swaimj]

Some are saying in effect that if their interpretation of Scripture is incorrect, though they do not admit to that possibility, then God did not keep His promises and, therefore, God is a liar.

This is incorrect, OR. What I am saying is that God's direct statement must be kept, otherwise, God would be a liar. You are saying that to even suggest a scenario, even though impossible, in which God would be a liar is to accuse God of actually being a liar. This is incorrect. If there is no hypothetical scenario in which God could be a liar, then lying becomes impossible.

 

[OldRegular]

Martin, swaimj

I just apply a literal interpretation to what dispensationalists write on this Forum.

 

[pilgrim2009]

Then God's promises to Israel failed.
...yet Scripture does just that (Romans 11)
Wrong. Paul addresses this very notion in Romans 9 - 11.
Is this the exegetical gymnastics you speak of?

Gods promises to Israel have not failed they are being fulfilled in the Church.

Galatians 3:28 neither Jew nor Greek......ye are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ`s then are ye Abrahams seed,and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything,nor uncircumcision,but a NEW CREATURE.

Galatians 6:16 And as many as walkk according to THIS RULE,peace be on them,and mercy,and upon THE ISRAEL OF GOD.

Jew and greek {i.e.gentile} are made ONE IN CHRIST and the above refers to those in Christ THE ISRAEL OF GOD.

Romans 9:8 Israel according to the flesh are not the children of God.

The same offer made to Nocodemus a JEW by Jesus 2000 years ago {John 3:1-6 still stands until Christ returns and then the earth will be destroyed by fire {2nd Peter 3:12}and the last Judgment and the New Heavens and earth {2nd Peter 3:13}

Peter said the new heavens and earth follows Christ coming and Rev chapter 21 the new heavens and earth appear and in Revelation chapter 20 is the 1000 year millennium {i.e.symbolic of the church age} and the 1st resurrection {i.e.spiritual resurrection of all believers in the church age}.

Dispensationalist are waiting on a millennium thats almost over.

Mercy.