I've Given Up Dispensationalism...

[Tom Butler]

I thought they were one and the same brother TC. Historic Premillenialism and Dispensationalism.
Do you mind giving this ignoramus a short lesson on comparative eschatology ?
thank you.

There are other differences, but the principal difference is that Historic Pre-Mils hold that there is no pre-trib rapture. Only one Second Coming, at the end of the Tribulation.

Since the question was for TCGreek, I'll yield to him to expand on this answer if he wishes.

 

[swaimj]

Sorry Swaimj -- I was NOT speaking of you, but of other posters. Your comments were perfectly reasonable.

Thanks JDale. Sorry I misread your post.

 

[OldRegular]

I thought they were one and the same brother TC. Historic Premillenialism and Dispensationalism.
Do you mind giving this ignoramus a short lesson on comparative eschatology ?
thank you.

Try this: http://home.att.net/~nathan.wilson/eschtlgy.htm

 

[TCGreek]

I thought they were one and the same brother TC. Historic Premillenialism and Dispensationalism.
Do you mind giving this ignoramus a short lesson on comparative eschatology ?
thank you.

PB, God doesn't have a distinct program for Israel and another for the church.

Dispensationalism makes such a distinction and therefore the Pre-Rapture position and so on.

 

[Allan]

PB, God doesn't have a distinct program for Israel and another for the church.

Dispensationalism makes such a distinction and therefore the Pre-Rapture position and so on.

But TC, God does have a distinct plan for Israel (Jews) as noted by Premil (I even showed Spurgeon speaking of it). Yes, they amoung the church but still distinct in that Gods promises to them must still be fulfilled to 'them' and not the just the Church in general. Premil states the Jew and the Gentile are one in Christ but God still has a plan for saved and ethnic Israel.

Dispy's do believe that the Jews are saved but unlike premil they state that they are still distinct of themselves from the church. Premil says they are the church but that the Jews in said church still have promises yet unfulfilled by God and can only be so when Christ is King. In other words the distinction is minimal, though it is technical.

 

[TCGreek]

But TC, God does have a distinct plan for Israel (Jews) as noted by Premil (I even showed Spurgeon speaking of it). Yes, they amoung the church but still distinct in that Gods promises to them must still be fulfilled to 'them' and not the just the Church in general. Premil states the Jew and the Gentile are one in Christ but God still has a plan for saved and ethnic Israel.

Allan, I only agree with Spurgeon or any other person when they agree with what I see in Scripture. I hope that helps.

Again, I don't believe in Baptist doctrines. I believe in Bible doctrines.

If a doctrine Baptists hold agrees with Scripture, then I hold to it as well.

But I'm never just going to embrace a doctrine because it has been held by many Baptists for many years. I hope that helps.

Dispy's do believe that the Jews are saved but unlike premil they state that they are still distinct of themselves from the church. Premil says they are the church but that the Jews in said church still have promises yet unfulfilled by God and can only be so when Christ is King. In other words the distinction is minimal, though it is technical.

I do not believe the church=Jews or vice versa.

What I believe is what Paul clearly states:

15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. (Eph. 2:15-16, TNIV)

One new humanity of both Jews and non-Jews is God's design, not one for the Jews and another for non-Jews.

But I do believe that in a salvific way God is going to reach out to ethnic Jews, per Romans 11.

 

[Allan]

Allan, I only agree with Spurgeon or any other person when they agree with what I see in Scripture. I hope that helps.

Again, I don't believe in Baptist doctrines. I believe in Bible doctrines.

If a doctrine Baptists hold agrees with Scripture, then I hold to it as well.

But I'm never just going to embrace a doctrine because it has been held by many Baptists for many years. I hope that helps.

I understand that and that is proper and right. What makes us baptists is we believe those truths we see in scripture which reflect a baptistic understanding.

However, premil is not a baptist derived doctrine but was around over a thousand years before the view of baptists as a denomination was even a faint flicker in the minds of men. Therefore I'm a little confused on what you are meaning in the above about believing 'baptist doctrines' in relation to the Premil view. (??)

Again, I agree with what you said and hope you know that this my view as well, and is more than likely the view of the majority of other baptist ministers and laymen as well. The rest of them need to wake up to our relationship with Christ and the unity derived therein and not in the trappings of men.

I do not believe the church=Jews or vice versa.

I agree

What I believe is what Paul clearly states:

One new humanity of both Jews and non-Jews is God's design, not one for the Jews and another for non-Jews.

Ok, but if we look at that verse it doesn't state that are to become one humanity (as in no physical/ethnic distinction) but the distinction which Paul declares, at least here, is refering to all being a people of God and not a single people group/ethnically. Remember that 'humanity' is made up of diverse ethnic people groups brother but we are all still one people. However, before God we are two, that group He has chosen (Jews) and those groups (Gentiles) He did not.

Paul shows the seperation of the two groups was not based upon ethnicity but was based upon the people/Jews who had been chosen to be God's people and thus seperated from the Gentiles/world. The seperation was made by God that they, the Jews, would be a people unto God. This was the hostility between them, the emnity if you will. God in Christ removed that boundry and encompasses all of humanity, and in this made of who believe one in Christ Jesus as a people unto God. Therefore since we are one spiritually but diverse ethnically, the promises made to 'ethnic' Israel by God still must be fulfilled though all who are in Christ will share in that fulfillment.
Thus in the mil-reign His people are one in essense but distinct in function, just as God is one God in essense and distinct in three persons.

But, maybe I misunderstood what you meant?

Anyway.. what I was intending to state was that both historic premil and Dispy's agree that Israel as a Nation will be gathered back to Himself and as a Nation receive their true King and be saved. And that in the Mil-reign National Israel will still be a literal nation during this time from which Christ shall rule from and over the other nations of the world, which also will be made up of the redeemed as well.

But I do believe that in a salvific way God is going to reach out to ethnic Jews, per Romans 11.

All dipsy's and premil's agree with you here

 

[TCGreek]

I understand that and that is proper and right. What makes us baptists is we believe those truths we see in scripture which reflect a baptistic understanding.

The name "Baptist" came from our ancestors stance on Baptism.

Through the years Baptists have held various beliefs on various subjects, including eschatology.

What baptistic understand, then do you have in mind?

,quote.However, premil is not a baptist derived doctrine but was around over a thousand years before the view of baptists as a denomination was even a faint flicker in the minds of men. Therefore I'm a little confused on what you are meaning in the above about believing 'baptist doctrines' in relation to the Premil view. (??)[/quote]

Just a general statement, my brother.

But folks I've spoken to believe Baptists are Dispensation and Pre-Rapture.

Ok, but if we look at that verse it doesn't state that are to become one humanity (as in no physical/ethnic distinction) but the distinction which Paul declares, at least here, is refering to all being a people of God and not a single people group/ethnically. Remember that 'humanity' is made up of diverse ethnic people groups brother but we are all still one people. However, before God we are two, that group He has chosen (Jews) and those groups (Gentiles) He did not.

Paul shows the seperation of the two groups was not based upon ethnicity but was based upon the people/Jews who had been chosen to be God's people and thus seperated from the Gentiles/world. The seperation was made by God that they, the Jews, would be a people unto God. This was the hostility between them, the emnity if you will. God in Christ removed that boundry and encompasses all of humanity, and in this made of who believe one in Christ Jesus as a people unto God. Therefore since we are one spiritually but diverse ethnically, the promises made to 'ethnic' Israel by God still must be fulfilled though all who are in Christ will share in that fulfillment.
Thus in the mil-reign His people are one in essense but distinct in function, just as God is one God in essense and distinct in three persons.

But, maybe I misunderstood what you meant?

Anyway.. what I was intending to state was that both historic premil and Dispy's agree that Israel as a Nation will be gathered back to Himself and as a Nation receive their true King and be saved. And that in the Mil-reign National Israel will still be a literal nation during this time from which Christ shall rule from and over the other nations of the world, which also will be made up of the redeemed as well.


All dipsy's and premil's agree with you here

I know only of the church right now as an agent of the Kingdom.

 

[Allan]

The name "Baptist" came from our ancestors stance on Baptism.

Through the years Baptists have held various beliefs on various subjects, including eschatology.

True, the annabaptists main bone to pick was baptism but not their only bone. But like all denoms they progrees into groups who both agree and hold to certains aspects and or fundamental veiws that distinguish them from the others who hold differences on those points.

Just a general statement, my brother.

But folks I've spoken to believe Baptists are Dispensation and Pre-Rapture.

Oh ok, understand. Though a large majority do it is improper to make the assumption 'all' do, or that the majority is always correct.

know only of the church right now as an agent of the Kingdom.

Then we both agree :thumbs:

 

[TCGreek]

True, the annabaptists main bone to pick was baptism but not their only bone. But like all denoms they progrees into groups who both agree and hold to certains aspects and or fundamental veiws that distinguish them from the others who hold differences on those points.

We didn't come from Anabaptists.

 

[Allan]

We didn't come from Anabaptists.

Who then, prior to anabaptists, after which came the baptists in general, held the name 'baptist'?

That is what I thought you were refering to.

 

[TCGreek]

Who then, prior to anabaptists, after which came the baptists in general, held the name 'baptist'?

That is what I thought you were refering to.

Well, if you meant the mention of the term prior our ancestors, then yes.

 

[Allan]

Well, if you meant the mention of the term prior our ancestors, then yes.

As I said, that what what I 'thought' you were refering to. :saint:

 

[HAmilton]

Posted by accident.

 

[gb93433]

I have good friends on both sides of this debate. In regards to the ethnic composition of modern Israel, I recently read a study by a Jewish professor that concluded that the Palestinians have more of a genetic link to the ancient nation of Israel than most Jews who have emigrated from Europe and whose ancestors were European converts to Judaism. His findings are obviously controversial.

Can you give the author and title of the book?

 

[HAmilton]

Having button issues today.

 

[HAmilton]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html

This link will give you all that information and a quick synopsis of the thesis.

 

[pilgrim2009]

A Must Read.

Israel: Our Duty... Our Dilemma

By Ted Pike.




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Part 1: The Historical Roots of Modern Judaism
Part 2: Beyond Survival: The Prophetic Destiny of Israel
Part 3: What Is Our Duty to Israel Today?

This book explains how the ancient Pharisees led Israel astray - and how those same "blind guides," through their doctrinal manifesto, the Talmud, continue to prejudice Jews against Christ and Christianity. Condensing 14 years research in Jewish sources, this unprecedented work demonstrates that Jewish opposition to the gospel, far from being over with in the book of Acts, continues today in movies, television, Jewish "civil liberties" groups and in "anti-missionary" laws in Israel.

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This is a book every Christian should read!