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James 2:14-26, faith or works?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Matt Black, Aug 10, 2004.

  1. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Matt Black,

    The Calvinist Order of Salvation teaches that regeneration may occur before justification. Man irresistably cooperates with the effectual call of the Spirit (regeneration) and is thereby justified. This is contrary to divine monergism. The Lutheran Church teaches that regeneration and justification by faith alone always occur simultaneously without any human cooperation:

    For when man is justified through faith (which the Holy Ghost alone works), this is truly a regeneration, because from a child of wrath he becomes a child of God, and thus is transferred from death to life, as it is written: When we were dead in sins, He hath quickened us together with Christ, Eph. 2, 5. Likewise: The just shall live by faith, Rom. 1, 17; Hab. 2, 4.
    Formula of Concord, Art. III, 1576
     
  2. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Lutherans believe in free will no more than Calvinists and perhaps less. The Pelagian culture that predominates in the world today sometimes infiltrates Lutheran churches as it does Calvinist churches. But Lutherans, in general, are much more committed to their confessions than are Calvinists. They can not openly embrace the new methods (e.g., the "decision", altar call, etc.) without clearly denying their own confessions. So I see much less compromise with Pelagianism among confessional Lutherans than among Calvinists. However, both denominations are severely threatened by the rising tide of Pelagianism particularly here in America where the new methods have gained broad acceptance.
     
  3. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Salvation is by: one, grace alone. Two, by faith alone. Three, by Christ alone. If salvation is by anything alone, it is all by itself. When I was with Grace and Faith I was not alone. Tis idea is unfounded in scripture. The Bible does not teach anything alone saves us.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Well we do find the term "By faith ALONE" in James 2.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. The Galatian

    The Galatian Active Member

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    Even Luther called James an "epistle of straw", and argued that it should be removed from the Bible, correctly pointing out that it contradicted his new doctrine of "sola fide."

    James actually points out that both faith and works are required.

    Jesus, in Matthew 25 says that you will go with Him, or go with the Devil and his angels, depending on your works.

    I'd take that seriously, if I were you.
     
  6. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Luther was not an original thinker. All of the early church fathers taught 'sola fide' and many of the early fathers taught that James and certain other epistles should not be placed on the same level with the Gospels and the writings of Paul.

    Those who teach 'sola fide' have never denied that good works are necessary for salvation (as James also teaches). Good works invariably follow faith and, in that sense only, we are justified by works.
     
  7. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    I wish to apologize for my use of the phrase "good works are necessary for salvation". It could be misunderstood as meaning that the cause of our salvation is something other than the grace of God and faith that obtains the merit of Christ in the promise of the gospel. Good works do not merit grace but result from grace.
     
  8. The Galatian

    The Galatian Active Member

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    Good works may also precede faith. But I agree with you, that both are required, as God says.

    Notice in Matthew 25, some ask Jesus when they did anything for Him. Who do you think it is, who is saved, but does not know about Him and why doing for others is doing for Him?
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The examples of justification in a future judgment - that we see in Romans 2:11-16 and Matt 7 -- always place it in the context Christ gives "by their fruits you shall know them".

    But the only reason this works - is because of the "justification passed" principle of Romans 5:1-2 which is by faith alone. Only by virtue of the new birth is the tree ITSELF made a "good tree" so that it produces good fruit. The new birth is based on justification in the past - and that is without respect to works.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Good post Bob!!

    Also, remember that when James said he was showing his faith by his works he was not talking about showing his faith to God, but showing his faith to others by his works (life). God knows and sees the heart directly. Our good works prove to others our faith, we can prove nothing to God, because he already knows everything.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  11. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Good works may also precede faith. But I agree with you, that both are required, as God says.

    Notice in Matthew 25, some ask Jesus when they did anything for Him. Who do you think it is, who is saved, but does not know about Him and why doing for others is doing for Him?
    </font>[/QUOTE]We are not "declared righteous" because of any preceding, present, or subsequent work, merit, or worthiness in ourselves. I use the word "justify" in the same sense that James does, that is, "supply proof of righteousness" not "declare righteous." This usage is common in English literature around the time of the KJV. For example, John Milton in his epic poem "Paradise Lost" writes, "I may assert eternal providence, And justify the ways of God to men." Milton certainly does not mean that he is declaring God righteous because of his poem! Rather he is showing evidence of how God is righteous in his poem.

    In the same way, good works, such as those described in Matt. 25, show evidence of the righteousness of Christ that has been imputed to the elect by faith alone because, without faith, it is impossible to please God.

    Faith clings to Jesus' cross alone
    And rests in Him unceasing;
    And by its fruits true faith is known,
    With love and hope increasing.
    Yet faith alone doth justify,
    Works serve thy neighbor and supply
    The proof that faith is living.

    Salvation Unto Us Has Come, 1523
     
  12. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Remeber that Abraham was justified NOT by works, but by Faith.

    Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    Galations really does a great job of giving us the picture of the balance between FAITH and WORKS.

    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Let no one be decieved. It is BY FAITH ALONE that we are justified. James is trying to emphasize, however, that our works DEMONSTRATE what we believe - the things we do proove wherein our faith lies.

    For example, if a car was speeding towards you, and you procalimed that you did not need to move... that you believed the car would miss you completely if you stood your ground, then as the car approached, you dove out of the way those who heard you would know that you truely beleived the car was going to hit you by your actions. What you believe in your heart of hearts would be revealed to all by your actions.

    By the same token, WHAT YOU BELIEVE is revealed in your works. The works themselves ARE NOT what save you or what get you into heaven... that can ONLY happen by FAITH. However, your actions have a way of revealing what you truely believe (as does the tongue).

    Remember - we are heirs together with the seed of Abraham according to the Promise God gave Abraham (remember his BELIEVE was imputed as righteousness - while he was yet a sinner).

    Galatians 3:

    1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
    4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
    17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
    18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.
    19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
    20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.
    21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
     
  13. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    The Bible says in James 2:21-26, 21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    One cannot separate biblical belief and works.

    Jesus said in John 6:27  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
    28  ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    The Bible teaches us the faith that saves and pleases God works. ( Romans 10:17, Hebrews 11:6, Hebrews 5:8,9). If one is to please God and be saved, he must have a biblical faith.
     
  14. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Gup20, Very nice post.

    Frank, most of us are close on this to one extent or another. Here is the issue though. What degree of works is not enough for salvation?? Where is the line drawn? If I serve in music but don't give much money, is that enough? What if I give loads of money but have no time to help others, is that enough?? I just don't see it working like that. Abrahams belief is what made him a friend of God. Abraham had saving faith and it was that faith that drove him to the actions he had, even to taking the life of his only son. Had Abraham not been able to lift the knife he still would have been God's friend. I will say it again. James was not talking about works that proved anything to God. He was speaking of works that let our light shine to others. Thats why Paul and James work fine together because James is talking to us in regards to how we prove our faith to others (Gup20 dealt well with that above). Anyway we can't prove to God what he already knows but we are to let our light shine so God is glorified.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  15. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Briguy:
    One must always conduct himself by faith. One must always seize the opportunity to do good. ( James 4:17). The good one does is to the glory of God.(Col. 3:17). The Bible requires one to do good faithfully unto death.( Rev. 2:10: 22:14).

    How much? Jesus said when ye have done all you can do consider theyself an unprofitable servant.(Luke 17:10). The guide for all is to live faithful and do all one can. The widow that cast in her small living did so out of faith. She pleased Jesus, not because of HOW MUCH? but, out of faith she gave all. Others had cast in more out of their abundance. However, their much paled in comparison to her giving all out of faith.

    Our works are to be motivated by faith that worketh by love, not how much.(Gal. 5:6). The more faith one has the greater his service and work for God will be. The question I ask is: am I a one talented, two talented, or five talented man. ( Mat. 25: 16-46). If I am a five talented man, can I, in faith, live as the two or one talented man? It is clear Jesus expects and demands our best. There is no magic number, only a faith that does all it can with the opportunity God provides.( Mat. 25).

    The how much is a problem caused, in part, by the failure to understand the connection of faith and works. They go hand in hand. As ones faith grows, so does his service. The men with two and five talents were given more opportunities because they were faithful, not because of the how much is enough.
     
  16. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Frank, that was a good answer. We are kind of treading on two waters here at the same time. Where you say as faith grows so does service, I say that growing in Christian maturity leads to more service (Pauls idea of a babe starting with milk). I think I am OK with the way you put it but I think that saving faith can't grow because it has completed what it was meant to do. That saving faith has caused a re-birth. Does that make sense? even if you disagree with the premise of OSAS? I loved your example of the widow who gave all she had, she truely is our example, and giving all of ourselves to Jesus should be our goal. The point is that while we wear this flesh we waiver, Paul made that abudently clear in Romans. There are going to be times in our lives when we serve more and times when we serve less. Well, maybe I am speaking for myself, but that is the way it is for me and those Christian brothers and sisters that I know personally. If God catches me at a down time, where my flesh has dealt me a blow, He will not love me less nor turn me away, if during that time I should die or He returns. He sees my heart and knows that in my depest self I long to love others more then myself and serve Him with my best. The service/works/deeds come out of that deepest heart desire and even if the service fades for a season the heart desire remains the same and that is what He ultimately sees and judges me by.

    Frank, thanks for your post it was well thought out and really got me thinking. You used great examples!!

    In Christian Love,
    Brian
     
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