James 2:24

[Michael Wrenn]

You said the singular verse meant what it meant. I was just taking your own words in that singular sentence to mean what it meant. LOL! :laugh:



Brother, you aren't going to get anymore "clear-cut" than the book of James. And it isn't the Bible's alledged "ambiguity and mystery" that leads to denominationalism. It's that faulty heart and mind of man. To much of humanity's pride and desire to justify their own will enters into every single denomination out there.

Peter and Paul couldn't agree on all the ins and outs of salvation and they had heard from Jesus Christ personally!

So, you were taking me literally. :smilewinkgrin:


I agree with everything you said -- I think. :laugh:

 

[saturneptune]

Faith w/o works is dead. We are not saved by our works, but our works/deeds shows the rest of the people who we are working for.

I have never understood the difficulty in understanding the relationship between James and Eph 2, and I am slow. You have two elements, faith and works. Faith in Jesus is a gift, as is salvation. One is not saved and never does anything else for the Lord but sit in a pew and eat pot lucks. Works naturally follow salvation, as that is your heart's desire. Works before salvation is something one is trying to do on their own power, and probably against their will, earning their way to heaven. The works are basically worthless without the Lord. I just do not understand the difficulty in this subject. Good post convicted.

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm sorry biblicist. that is a poor exegete of that passage. James clearly indicates that faith alone without works is useless before God and men but specifically before God.

If it was a poor exegesis you could explicitly point out where it was poor rather than making a general denial. The expository statements stand.

1. Do you deny that Paul's treatment in Romans 3-4 is Abstract Theological while James treatment is Personal and Practical? Just look at his wording in Romans 3:9-4:22 compared to consistent pronouns used in James 2:14-24.

2. Do you deny that Paul explicitly places his case "before God" (Rom. 4:1-2) but James is placing his case before men (James 2:14-17 "a man may say...one of you say unto them......shew me.....I will shew you...")?

3. Do you deny that Paul never says "SHEW me.....I will SHEW you....Do YOU see" in his treatment of justification.

4. Do you deny that Paul says justification is "without works" (Rom. 3:38; 4:5-6) "Justified by faith without the deeds of the law......worketh not but beleiveth....without works"

5. Do you deny that Romans 6 Paul combines justification and regeneration and therefore justification is "without works" but it is not without regeneration which produces good works? We died to sin by justification ("freed" = justified) once but we are sharing resurrection life and living unto God:

Rom. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed (Gr. dikaioo = justified] from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:.......10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
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6. Do you deny that James is speaking about a person who professes to be justified but demands VISIBLE verification of his faith by his works - vv. 14-18 - Hence, James is not teaching that you are justified BY works but rather that justification BY faith is accompanied with works - big difference!

14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

7. Do you deny that every negative illustration given by James is of a person/angel that is totally without any good works and therefore the contrast is not between less and more but between NONE and SOME??

My exposition is solid! James is dealing with a person who has already claimed to be justified by faith thus a born again man. Where there is justification there is regeneration and "good works" and where there is no "good works" there is no regeneration or justification. Hence, justifying faith always accompanies good works or else it is the faith of the spiritual dead - like demons. James is not teaching anyone is justified BY works only that justification BY faith always is accompanied with works so that you are able to "SHEW" your faith by your works.

CONCLUSION: Now, if you want to criticize my exposition, then do it with with specifics not with generalties. When you do it with generalities it only proves you are merely trying to trash it because your incapable of demonstrating it is wrong.

 

[The Biblicist]

If it was a poor exegesis you could explicitly point out where it was poor rather than making a general denial. The expository statements stand.

1. Do you deny that Paul's treatment in Romans 3-4 is Abstract Theological while James treatment is Personal and Practical? Just look at his wording in Romans 3:9-4:22 compared to consistent pronouns used in James 2:14-24.

2. Do you deny that Paul explicitly places his case "before God" (Rom. 4:1-2) but James is placing his case before men (James 2:14-17 "a man may say...one of you say unto them......shew me.....I will shew you...")?

3. Do you deny that Paul never says "SHEW me.....I will SHEW you....Do YOU see" in his treatment of justification.

4. Do you deny that Paul says justification is "without works" (Rom. 3:38; 4:5-6) "Justified by faith without the deeds of the law......worketh not but beleiveth....without works"

5. Do you deny that Romans 6 Paul combines justification and regeneration and therefore justification is "without works" but it is not without regeneration which produces good works? We died to sin by justification ("freed" = justified) once but we are sharing resurrection life and living unto God:

Rom. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed (Gr. dikaioo = justified] from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:.......10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
:

6. Do you deny that James is speaking about a person who professes to be justified but demands VISIBLE verification of his faith by his works - vv. 14-18 - Hence, James is not teaching that you are justified BY works but rather that justification BY faith is accompanied with works - big difference!

14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

7. Do you deny that every negative illustration given by James is of a person/angel that is totally without any good works and therefore the contrast is not between less and more but between NONE and SOME??

My exposition is solid! James is dealing with a person who has already claimed to be justified by faith thus a born again man. Where there is justification there is regeneration and "good works" and where there is no "good works" there is no regeneration or justification. Hence, justifying faith always accompanies good works or else it is the faith of the spiritual dead - like demons. James is not teaching anyone is justified BY works only that justification BY faith always is accompanied with works so that you are able to "SHEW" your faith by your works.

CONCLUSION: Now, if you want to criticize my exposition, then do it with with specifics not with generalties. When you do it with generalities it only proves you are merely trying to trash it because your incapable of demonstrating it is wrong.

Readers,

The whole argument by James revolves around VISIBLE DEMONSTRATION of ones profession of faith by his works. James 2:14-18 is all about VISIBLE DEMONSTRATION of ones invisible faith.

Works make Justification by faith complete in the professing life of the believer.

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James does not deny that a man is justified by faith without works before God [which is INVISIBLE] but He only denies that a justified man is without works among men.

When James says "not by faith ONLY" he is asserting one is justified by faith but not faith that is alone but faith that is visibly expressed by works. the accompanying works do not justify him before God but they express his faith before men and thus make it complete.

Hence, a justified man before God by faith is a justified man before men by works. The good works are produced by the regenerative life in the justified man by faith (Eph. 2:10). Where there is no good works there is no regenerative life and thus a dead faith. However, where there is regenerative life there is good works that visibly profess justification by faith without works before God.

 

[steaver]

Peter and Paul couldn't agree on all the ins and outs of salvation and they had heard from Jesus Christ personally!

What? You believe Peter and Paul preached different salvation messages? Or am I misunderstanding your statement?

 

[preacher4truth]

What? You believe Peter and Paul preached different salvation messages? Or am I misunderstanding your statement?

They may have had a conflict over liberty in Christ, but not over the Gospel, nor over salvation.

 

[Scarlett O.]

What? You believe Peter and Paul preached different salvation messages? Or am I misunderstanding your statement?

You are misunderstanding my statement and perhaps I stated it wrongly.

Paul said with conviction that Peter "stood condemned" and Peter's actions of differentiating between how Gentile and Jewish Christians should behave even caused Barnabas to stumble.

 

[steaver]

You are misunderstanding my statement and perhaps I stated it wrongly.

Paul said with conviction that Peter "stood condemned" and Peter's actions of differentiating between how Gentile and Jewish Christians should behave even caused Barnabas to stumble.

Figured I was. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

It is simply false to indicate that the works James speaks of is simply 'fruit' of faith.That is nowhere stated or implied in the text. James clearly associates justification as involving two notions, not simply one with subsequent fruits. Works are at one with faith for justification to take place. without which justification will NOT take place.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

The clear implied answer is a resounding NO. Faith alone does not save.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Again, faith and works are two specific means, both of which must be coupled together for justification to take place. They are co-joined twin issues of justification in the sense of works James is speaking of.

James then makes the association of faith to mere belief, which again he claims faith is "DEAD" if not co-joined with works, showing belief alone will in no wise save anyone.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The Apostle then uses Abraham as an example of the union between faith and works. He teaches that justification did not occur until works had occurred.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Obviously Abrahams belief had no ability to justify UNTIL he began to offer his son Isaac, fully intending to sacrifice him as God commanded. Then and only then was he justified before God. His faith in God had to be coupled with works for justification to take place. "Was not Abraham justified by works..." The belief of God was not consummated until the works took place. When the works took place, the belief in God co-joined the works and they twain became the means by which God's justification took root and came to fruition.

"Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Faith is NOT made perfect or complete until works take place in accordance to ones faith. That is the scriptural teaching firmly implanted in this text by God. Works are NOT simply the results of ones faith, but rather faith is made perfect by works, without which it is dead and meaningless.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Now if the reader thinks for a minute that works must always involve an outward expression, they are missing the mark. ALL works start with an act of the will, and once the will has honestly made an ultimate intention, subsequent works sustain to the act of the will the relationship of necessity. One can ONLY do as they will. If the will has chosen an end and a means to that end, it will of necessity act in that manner. If it does not, it is obvious that one of two things have taken place. Either the will has chosen a new end and different means, or some force or coercion beyond the control of ones has prohibited such an intention to be acted upon. In such cases God clearly tells us that in such cases, God accepts our faith and our intention as evidence of a work completed, and accounts to us that faith/work as if though we have done it. This is clearly illustrated in the example of Abraham, when God stopped him short of actually carring out his full intention to sacrifice Isaac.

2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: Although justification by faith is "without works" it is not without regeneration which produces good works (Eph. 2:10). Hence where there is no regenerative fruits there is no justification by faith. This is James point! If you profess to be justified by faith then it will be inseparable from regenerative (living) fruits because there is no such thing as a justified person who is spiritually dead. Where there is justification there is regenerative fruits. Dead faith belongs to the spiritually dead - demons!

HP: Only the last sentence of Biblicist is in accordance to the words of James.
Contrary to the beliefs of Biblicist, there are certainly some that have had their sins remitted only to return to the hog pen of sin, aborting their first love and making shipwreck of their faith.

Biblicist claims that James is suggesting that the context is setting forth that fruits must be 'subsequent' to justification, yet that is NOT the point James is making, although ones faith should render good fruits. What I do not understand is, how does a testimony of sinning everyday, or a complete inability to live a holy life even with the help proffered by the Lord, show forth regenerative works?


It is NOT the point of James to say that works are antecedent to faith. (although they should and do in fact follow in any believers life) The point of James is that works and faith must 'work together,' be 'co-joined,' at all times or ones faith is dead and likened to the beliefs devils have and even tremble, yet are not justified.


Biblicist completely misses the whole point of James 2. In the place of context he inject ideas completely foreign to the points James makes in this chapter. The approach Biblicist engages this text is a lesson in eisegesis, NOT sound exegesis.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It is simply false to indicate that the works James speaks of is simply 'fruit' of faith.That is nowhere stated or implied in the text. James clearly associates justification as involving two notions, not simply one with subsequent fruits. Works are at one with faith for justification to take place. without which justification will NOT take place.

The clear implied answer is a resounding NO. Faith alone does not save.


Again, faith and works are two specific means, both of which must be coupled together for justification to take place. They are co-joined twin issues of justification in the sense of works James is speaking of.

James then makes the association of faith to mere belief, which again he claims faith is "DEAD" if not co-joined with works, showing belief alone will in no wise save anyone.


The Apostle then uses Abraham as an example of the union between faith and works. He teaches that justification did not occur until works had occurred.
Obviously Abrahams belief had no ability to justify UNTIL he began to offer his son Isaac, fully intending to sacrifice him as God commanded. Then and only then was he justified before God. His faith in God had to be coupled with works for justification to take place. "Was not Abraham justified by works..." The belief of God was not consummated until the works took place. When the works took place, the belief in God co-joined the works and they twain became the means by which God's justification took root and came to fruition.
Faith is NOT made perfect or complete until works take place in accordance to ones faith. That is the scriptural teaching firmly implanted in this text by God. Works are NOT simply the results of ones faith, but rather faith is made perfect by works, without which it is dead and meaningless.


Now if the reader thinks for a minute that works must always involve an outward expression, they are missing the mark. ALL works start with an act of the will, and once the will has honestly made an ultimate intention, subsequent works sustain to the act of the will the relationship of necessity. One can ONLY do as they will. If the will has chosen an end and a means to that end, it will of necessity act in that manner. If it does not, it is obvious that one of two things have taken place. Either the will has chosen a new end and different means, or some force or coercion beyond the control of ones has prohibited such an intention to be acted upon. In such cases God clearly tells us that in such cases, God accepts our faith and our intention as evidence of a work completed, and accounts to us that faith/work as if though we have done it. This is clearly illustrated in the example of Abraham, when God stopped him short of actually carring out his full intention to sacrifice Isaac.


,

Very good HP. See Biblicist. When you exegete a passage you do so internally to the book which you are putting under review as HP has done in this post. You don't jump to an unrelated book such as romans to assertain the context of what James is speaking of. James is clear. Faith independent of works does not exist.

:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkingstuff, thank you. It is good to see that some are smarter than a third grader..... and Steaver, their teacher.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkingstuff: Faith independent of works does not exist.

HP: Well said.:thumbs:

That is precisely the message James is giving.Faith that God requires of man requires an act of the will, it requires man 'doing' something. In it's most earliest form the mind is active in the forming of intents and choosing means to carry out such intents, of obedience.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

HP: Well said.:thumbs:

That is precisely the message James is giving.Faith that God requires of man requires an act of the will, it requires man 'doing' something. In it's most earliest form the mind is active in the forming of intents and choosing means to carry out such intents, of obedience.

Otherwise the act of eating the forbiden fruit did not condem man but the fact that he wanted to eat it. Which of course is contrary to the scriptures. Again when Cain wanted to kill his brother God should have banished him at that point but instead said "sin is crouching at your door". It was the actual act of killing Able that condemed Cain. The same principle applies to faith. Wanting to follow God is a good thing actually doing it is faith.