• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

James Snapp, Jr. vs. John MacArthur

rlvaughn

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
From James Snapp, Jr.:
It has been almost ten years since Dr. John MacArthur preached a sermon titled “The Fitting End to Mark’s Gospel,” in which he called Mark 16:9-20 a “bad ending.” Since then, the ministry of Grace to You has promoted his claims over and over.

But many of his claims are false. I’m not challenging his doctrines here; I mean that he says many things in that sermon that are flat-out untrue. He says things that are fictitious. In the next ten minutes, I will focus on just some of them...

In conclusion: I call on John MacArthur to retract the false claims that he has been spreading for the past ten years. And I call on Grace To You to stop circulating the materials that contain and promote those false claims.​
Mark 16:9-20 - Grace To You vs. The Evidence
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Snapp gets right down to it! :Biggrin He makes a good case for the longer ending.

I've never actually thought of MacArthur as that much of a Greek scholar, though he uses it fairly well in his sermons. In textual criticism, he needs to humble himself and leave the subject up to scholars like Robinson or even well-studied amateurs like Snapp.
 

rlvaughn

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I agree. I wonder how much influence MacArthur has/will have over the new Legacy Standard Bible, since it is produced by scholars at The Master's Seminary. From LSB site:
2021.png
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Footnote of NET Bible concerning the Ending of Mark at 16:9.
9tc The Gospel of Mark ends at this point in some witnesses (א B 304 sys sams armmss Eus Eusmss Hiermss), including two of the most respected mss (א B). The following shorter ending is found in some mss: “They reported briefly to those around Peter all that they had been commanded. After these things Jesus himself sent out through them, from the east to the west, the holy and imperishable preaching of eternal salvation. Amen.” This shorter ending is usually included with the longer ending (L Ψ 083 099 0112 579 al); k, however, ends at this point. Most mss include the longer ending (vv. 9-20) immediately after v. 8 (A C D W [which has a different shorter ending between vv. 14 and 15] Θ Ë13 33 2427 Ď lat syc,p,h bo); however, Jerome and Eusebius knew of almost no Greek mss that had this ending. Several mss have marginal comments noting that earlier Greek mss lacked the verses, while others mark the text with asterisks or obeli (symbols that scribes used to indicate that the portion of text being copied was spurious). Internal evidence strongly suggests the secondary nature of both the short and the long endings. Their vocabulary and style are decidedly non-Markan (for further details, see TCGNT 102-6). All of this evidence strongly suggests that as time went on scribes added the longer ending, either for the richness of its material or because of the abruptness of the ending at v. 8. (Indeed, the strange variety of dissimilar endings attests to the probability that early copyists had a copy of Mark that ended at v. 8, and they filled out the text with what seemed to be an appropriate conclusion. All of the witnesses for alternative endings to vv. 9-20 thus indirectly confirm the Gospel as ending at v. 8.) Because of such problems regarding the authenticity of these alternative endings, 16:8 is usually regarded as the last verse of the Gospel of Mark. There are three possible explanations for Mark ending at 16:8: (1) The author intentionally ended the Gospel here in an open-ended fashion; (2) the Gospel was never finished; or (3) the last leaf of the ms was lost prior to copying. This first explanation is the most likely due to several factors, including (a) the probability that the Gospel was originally written on a scroll rather than a codex (only on a codex would the last leaf get lost prior to copying); (b) the unlikelihood of the ms not being completed; and (c) the literary power of ending the Gospel so abruptly that the readers are now drawn into the story itself. E. Best aptly states, “It is in keeping with other parts of his Gospel that Mark should not give an explicit account of a conclusion where this is already well known to his readers” (Mark, 73; note also his discussion of the ending of this Gospel on 132 and elsewhere). The readers must now ask themselves, “What will I do with Jesus? If I do not accept him in his suffering, I will not see him in his glory.”

I think the references to the two "most respected" manuscripts are to Sinaiticus and [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus']Vaticanus, [/URL]both apparently from the 4th Century.

So let us revisit the arguments presented to undermine Dr. John MacArthur's viewpoint:
1) Massive evidence is redefined to not mean the evidence available against the long ending.
2) "they all survived" because they were not banned is ridiculed because natural decay exists. A nit pic at best.
3) "Earliest and most important is challenged as if Sinaiticus was not one of the earliest and most important.
4) Jerome included "9-20" in his Vulgate, but acknowledge that the text was possibly not part of the original because it differed from Matthew.
5) The early witnesses "say the same thing" is attacked as false, disregarding the overall truth of the statement based on specific differences.
6) The idea that you can put together support for your accepted version using patristic quotations is attacked because you could also put together a lack of support for other variant readings. Another nit...
7) The claim of a complete manuscript of the Iliad dates from the 13th Century is attacked because fragments exist much earlier. Manufactured problem.
8) The argument against the long ending relies on more than three witnesses. So another manufactured fault.
9) The claim is made by MacArthur than more than one optional ending exists. The above footnote validates that claim.
10) The MacArthur claim for support from early church fathers against the long ending does indeed appear to be an overreach.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
A side note:. It might be concluded the Apostle Paul makes reference from Mark 16:15 in Colossians 1:23, ". . . the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; . . ."
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A side note:. It might be concluded the Apostle Paul makes reference from Mark 16:15 in Colossians 1:23, ". . . the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; . . ."
If Mark was written between 65 and 70 AD, and Colossians between 50 and 62 AD, the long ending could be referring to Paul, rather than the other way around...
 

37818

Well-Known Member
If Mark was written between 65 and 70 AD, and Colossians between 50 and 62 AD, the long ending could be referring to Paul, rather than the other way around...
The epilogue is older than any manuscripts that omit it. Only 3 Greek mss omit the reading.
 
Last edited:

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A side note:. It might be concluded the Apostle Paul makes reference from Mark 16:15 in Colossians 1:23, ". . . the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; . . ."
The Greek is not exactly the same syntax. I think that can be explained by the fact that Mark has an imperative with a direct object, but it is passive in Col., and the passive must have an agent. But the meaning is identical:

KJV Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
BGT Mark 16:15 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

versus

KJV. Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
BGT Colossians 1:23 εἴ γε ἐπιμένετε τῇ πίστει τεθεμελιωμένοι καὶ ἑδραῖοι καὶ μὴ μετακινούμενοι ἀπὸ τῆς ἐλπίδος τοῦ εὐαγγελίου οὗ ἠκούσατε, τοῦ κηρυχθέντος ἐν πάσῃ κτίσει τῇ ὑπὸ τὸν οὐρανόν, οὗ ἐγενόμην ἐγὼ Παῦλος διάκονος.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
What I see and what my NA Greek NT cross references.
Mark 16:15, ". . . παση τη κτισει . . ."
Colossians 1:23, " . . . παση τη κτισει . . ."
 

37818

Well-Known Member
KJV. Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
BGT Colossians 1:23 εἴ γε ἐπιμένετε τῇ πίστει τεθεμελιωμένοι καὶ ἑδραῖοι καὶ μὴ μετακινούμενοι ἀπὸ τῆς ἐλπίδος τοῦ εὐαγγελίου οὗ ἠκούσατε, τοῦ κηρυχθέντος ἐν πάσῃ κτίσει τῇ ὑπὸ τὸν οὐρανόν, οὗ ἐγενόμην ἐγὼ Παῦλος διάκονος.
The CT omits the article τη in Colossians 1:23. The TR has it along with 95% of the mss of Colossians at that reference.
 

rlvaughn

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I had wondered if anyone would comment on the picture. From the promotion site of the LSB, this picture shows all attention is on John MacArthur. I do not know who any of the other folks are, but would assume they are people somehow involved in the production of the LSB.
 

Bassoonery

Active Member
I had wondered if anyone would comment on the picture. From the promotion site of the LSB, this picture shows all attention is on John MacArthur. I do not know who any of the other folks are, but would assume they are people somehow involved in the production of the LSB.

There's something about MacArthur that makes me very uneasy, and the picture certainly doesn't help! I tried writing about it once but it's hard to put my finger on it. I think I see a tension between the almost popish untouchability with which he is esteemed, and his less obvious powerlessness as a puppet for Phil Johnson, who really seems to be the man who pulls the strings. I watched one sermon which pretty much paraphrased a commentary I happened to have still open on my browser, but I suspected the notes had simply been provided to him by someone like Johnson. What made it worse was that he boasted about how he had done the hard work of research so that the congregation didn't need to - not only disingenuous but anti-Berean! Without questioning the integrity of his faith, I keep my distance.
 

rlvaughn

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In announcing the new LSB, John MacArthur said (among many other things):
It’s going to be the expositor’s dream Bible, to have the absolutely accurate, consistent text to study, to preach, and it’s… it’s bound to be the most accurate, the most consistent, translation in English, and that is a gift to the church. [bold emp. mine]
 

rlvaughn

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Interesting that MacArthur does a sort of "bait and switch" on the topic of "massive evidence." When he brings up massive evidence, he is talking about the sheer number of manuscripts. But, as far as actual numbers of manuscripts go, the sheer numbers do not support his claim. BTW, MacArthur's talk on the subject can be found HERE.
 
Top