James the Brother of Jesus Ossuary

[thessalonian]

Sola,

Since your not going to understand or agree with anything I say, okay, your right, I'm wrong on the whole thing about the footnote. Big deal. Who cares. A footnote is not an infallible declaration of a Pope or council and my post was not either so who cares. If you are right it is not a contradiction that concerns me and does nothing to explain why Paul calls himself father and says Abraham is the "father of us all". The footnote proves nothing about infallibility of the Church and it does not make sola scriptura any more true no matter how badly you want it to be. So who cares. Not me.

Blessings though.

 

[Frank]

Thessalonian:

A description of function is not and elevation of one man over another. In Catholicism, the magisterium , the pirest, and the pope are elevated as AUTHORITY above the laity, I believe you call it.

Are you denying that these gropus are infallible in their spirtuial pronouncements?

In fact, if your interpretation of scripture is different than the church, if you are a faithful Catholic, you submit to their interpretation. Are you denying this?

Again, Paul nor any other person in the inspired volume wore titles that exalted or elelvated themselves so as to bring personal glory. Paul was not Father Paul or Bishop Paul. He was Paul an apostle of Christ Jesus. He was as the descriptive term apostle indicates, ONE SENT OUT.

The protestant denominations imitate Catholics in the similar manner. However, they call them REVEREND.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Frank:
Again, Paul nor any other person in the inspired volume wore titles that exalted or elelvated themselves so as to bring personal glory. Paul was not Father Paul or Bishop Paul. He was Paul an apostle of Christ Jesus. He was as the descriptive term apostle indicates, ONE SENT OUT.

The protestant denominations imitate Catholics in the similar manner. However, they call them REVEREND.

How about pastor?

Does your church have a pastor?

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Frank:
Thessalonian:

A description of function is not and elevation of one man over another. In Catholicism, the magisterium , the pirest, and the pope are elevated as AUTHORITY above the laity, I believe you call it.

Are you denying that these gropus are infallible in their spirtuial pronouncements?

In fact, if your interpretation of scripture is different than the church, if you are a faithful Catholic, you submit to their interpretation. Are you denying this?

Again, Paul nor any other person in the inspired volume wore titles that exalted or elelvated themselves so as to bring personal glory. Paul was not Father Paul or Bishop Paul. He was Paul an apostle of Christ Jesus. He was as the descriptive term apostle indicates, ONE SENT OUT.

The protestant denominations imitate Catholics in the similar manner. However, they call them REVEREND.

Frank,

You could start something like the flat earth society. Call it the flat Church society. Get a wicker basket or two with an handle and you could stop filing taxes.
Problem is it wouldn't be biblical:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

1 Timothy 5:17
The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.


Now here these elders are getting a title that elevates them as an authority over someone. Don't you agree. And it is about preaching and teaching. In order to preach and teach they must have someone who needs to be preached to an taught.

Frank if it is every man and his bible you still haven't answered the question about the illiterate of which the vast majority of the human population has been for the duration of history. Now these elders who rule well above, put them in a room with a bunch of illiterates and tell me every man and his Bible needs to rule the day. Not a chance amigo. Clear as day, Plain as the nose on your face, sure as death and taxes. Now that preacher had better have a church that is watching to make sure he is feeding the sheep (isn't it interesting how we are typed to an animal that follows somewhat blindly, are you a sheep Frank?)with the good stuff.

The Isrealites followed Moses and in doing so, they were following God. They followed Joshua and in doing so they were following God. They followed David and in doing so they were following God. The Ninevites had to listen to Job or they would have been destroyed. In Mt 23 he even tells the Jews to do whatever the scribes and pharasees say who sit on Moses seat. That's a pretty old seat with alot of leaders that they needed to obey for all those years. God has always provided leaders and prophets. It's a fact Jack.

Blessings my anti-catholic friend.

Blessings.

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

Thess, infallibility is a smokescrean. You say "the popes is infallible" as if everything he say is true, but then when challenged on it you say "only when he speak on faith & morals is he infallible" or "only when he speaks ex cathedra." Give it up! You can't have your cake & eat it to!

Pontifex Coligny necem probat

[ May 15, 2003, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura in 2003:
Thess, infallibility is a smokescrean. You say "the popes is infallible" as if everything he say is true, but then when challenged on it you say "only when he speak on faith & morals is he infallible" or "only when he speaks ex cathedra." Give it up! You can't have your cake & eat it to!

Pontifex Coligny necem probat

Read your statement. Notice what is in quotes (even though you are paraphrasing), and what is not. The words "as if" are not in quotes, because you added them, because you like to pretend that when Thess is speaking about the Pope, he believes the Pope is ALWAYS infallible. Funny, try asking him. Then you provide the true definition of Papal infallibility, which he and I both hold to, and you call that a smokescreen...for what? For unlimited infallibility? That thing you ASSUME Thess believes but don't have a shred of proof for?

I declare, some of you guys come up with the weirdest things.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Frank]

Thessalonian:
The term elder is not a title. It is a description of duty in the church. Elders in the Lords' church are addressed as brother as all other male christians. There is not one example in the new testament of Jesus Christ where an elder is addressed as ELDER. Mat. 23. In fact, Peter was an elder in the church of the Lord. I Peter 5:1-5. Peter was never addressed as such. Of course, you believe he was a pope. I guess Peter must have had Altzheimers!

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Frank:
Thessalonian:
The term elder is not a title. It is a description of duty in the church. Elders in the Lords' church are addressed as brother as all other male christians. There is not one example in the new testament of Jesus Christ where an elder is addressed as ELDER. Mat. 23. In fact, Peter was an elder in the church of the Lord. I Peter 5:1-5. Peter was never addressed as such. Of course, you believe he was a pope. I guess Peter must have had Altzheimers!

Ask I previously asked, what about pastor? does your church have a pastor? Do you call him "pastor" and thus set him apart and above the rest of your church?

Let's be consistent.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Frank:
Thessalonian:
The term elder is not a title. It is a description of duty in the church. Elders in the Lords' church are addressed as brother as all other male christians. There is not one example in the new testament of Jesus Christ where an elder is addressed as ELDER. Mat. 23. In fact, Peter was an elder in the church of the Lord. I Peter 5:1-5. Peter was never addressed as such. Of course, you believe he was a pope. I guess Peter must have had Altzheimers!

Oh I see now. God damning people to hell for giving people titles. We simply can't name people by the descriptor of what they do as a title. This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. So it is a sin to say the apostle Paul but not to say Paul an apostle. We call priests father as a description of what they are to us. Spiritual guides and directors. You see them as something to ridicule and trash and so you pick at the title we use for them. You make up the rules as you go. And also you are hog tied by the language in the Bible. Well frank I got news for you. Noone was ever an apostle because that is an english word. So perhaps you better start learning hebrew and greek. Frank do you believe in the trinity? Was Jesus the incarnation of God? You use the Bible as a straight jacket frank. How can you possibly apply it to your life today? It is apparent you don't. I find conversing with you to be an excercise in handing a totally blind person a pair of glasses. The only way I can make him see is by prayer and so that is the route I will take with you. Bye.

Thanks for stopping by.

Blessigns

 

[Frank]

Trying2U:

NO, we do not have a pastor. In the new testament organization of the church, congregations have a plural number of men who serve as elders, deacons, pastors, bishops as per I Tim. 3:1-11 and Titus 1:4-9. The church of our Lord has a man or men who preach. They are called brother just as the elders, bishops, deacons, or pastors.

Remember, I am not Protestant, Catholic, or Jew.
I do not subscribe to creeds of men such as a single pastor who is the preacher and ruler over a deacon board. This practice is not found in the pages of inspiration.

One may be a part of a multiple number of men who serve as one of the pastors( elders), Titus 1;4,5, but he does not have to be a preacher. The term pastor is always plural in describing the organization of the church. The term pastor as used by protestant denominations is not scriptural, as a number of these men do not meet the qualifications of I Tim. 3:1-11, Titus 1:4-9.

I am consistent.

 

[Frank]

Thessalonian:
II Tim. 2:15 teaches us to rightly divide the word of truth. Your argument about Abraham and Paul are untenable in context and comparison with Mat. 23:8-10.
The divine volume proclaims the following:
1. No titles that exalt men. Mat. 23:8-10.
2. There are no examples of God approving of names or titles exalting men.
3. There is no implication from scripture for men to be called father, rabbi, master, etc.

Therefore, the rational mind must conclude that God does not want men to wear, to be called, or call themselves by titles or names of exaltation.

The fact that you do it, and like it, does not change the fact that God does not approve of it.

The Bible is not a straight jacket, but is the perfect law of liberty. James 1:25. It also allows one to SEE HIMSELF as he is. James 1:22-26. Perhaps, you do not like the mirror or the image you see.

 

[GraceSaves]

Frank,

You make some good points, but fall short in the end.

Even if you have 100 pastors and deacons in your fellowship, all of them with equal authority, they are still at a higher level of authority simply by having the titles of "pastor" or "deacon." Even if you do not call him "Pastor So-and-so" you acknowledge that you have many pastors, and those pastors serve differnet functions than the average layman. They carry authority that, if I walked into your church, I would not have.

There is nothing wrong with heirarchy as long as that heirarchy does not think itself better than the laity. By calling the "Pope" "Holy Father," these are titles that are attributed him because of his office, not because of the man. The man is a sinner; the office is holy. By virtue of his office alone, he leads the pilgrim church on earth. Same with individual priests. The title is a reference to their vocation: the spiritual fathers who lead others to Christ.

You can disagree all you want, but all your disagreements are assumptions. One day, I hope that I will be able to be a priest, and able to serve my Lord in that fashion. I would assume that I would be called "Father Grant" or some such thing. It's a title of endearment, not of pride. A pastor cares for the flock's spiritual needs.

I guess, though, according to your standards, we should not call a married woman "Mrs." since that sets her above the unmarried "Miss." What a boastful thing!

Until you are a priest, call "Father Frank," and you start feeling all boastful and prideful about it, do you really have room to talk about how others take their title of endearment? Only in your head, Frank. Only in your head.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Frank]

Grant:
it appears you did not read my post or do not understand english. NO MAN IN THE LORDS CHURCH IS ADDRESSED AS MASTER, RABBI, FATHER, REVEREND OR ANY OTHER SUCH NAME. The BIBLE gives the divine qualifications for one to SERVE in the role of a deacon,elder, bishop,shepherd etc. These are scriptural designations of SERVICE, not exaltation. Again, you are comparing the abuse of Maat. 23 to that which God ordains. Titus 1:4-9. The failure is yours in not rightly dividing the word of truth.