JANE FONDA: Just What Constitutes True Forgiveness???

[righteousdude2]

There is currently an interesting debate going on in the Politics Forums in regard to Jane Fonda and whether she should have been tried as a traitor.

Somehow, the post has turned into a moral argument over forgiveness, and I couldn't help but ask this question, but, instead of placing it there, I think it best fits in this forum. I hope you all agree with me, and get involved in this debate over forgiveness and the ability to forget.

QUESTION: If your neighbor molested your child; beat the crime because of plea bargains; and 40 years later showed up in your community, or, your church and professed to be born-again... HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD TRUST YOUR GRANDCHILDREN, OR, SUNDAY SCHOOL CHILDREN TO BE ALONE WITH, OR, IN THE CARE OF THAT PERSON???

Sure you'd forgive them, BECAUSE God did when they came to Jesus and repented of thier sin. And this is as it should be according to the Word... but, wouldn't their past sin of sexual crimes against your child cause you to take "pause?" Wouldn't you be a little angry that this person never served time-for-the-crime??

Sure, Fonda never violated a child, but, to many American's, and especially those who served in Viet Nam, Fonda violated their personal value, worth, and service to this country.

So, just what would you feel, about the molester coming back into your life 40years after their sin against you and your child???

I'm sorry, but, true forgiveness is only capable by God... we are not God, and never will be. Accept the fact that we are humans, and subject to sin, that is why I John 1:8-9 exists - to remind us of our imperfections. As for being gods, only Mormons can expect to gain that eternal reward!

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

There is currently an interesting debate going on in the Politics Forums in regard to Jane Fonda and whether she should have been tried as a traitor.

Somehow, the post has turned into a moral argument over forgiveness, and I couldn't help but ask this question, but, instead of placing it there, I think it best fits in this forum. I hope you all agree with me, and get involved in this debate over forgiveness and the ability to forget.

QUESTION: If your neighbor molested your child; beat the crime because of plea bargains; and 40 years later showed up in your community, or, your church and professed to be born-again... HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD TRUST YOUR GRANDCHILDREN, OR, SUNDAY SCHOOL CHILDREN TO BE ALONE WITH, OR, IN THE CARE OF THAT PERSON???

Sure you'd forgive them, BECAUSE God did when they came to Jesus and repented of thier sin. And this is as it should be according to the Word... but, wouldn't their past sin of sexual crimes against your child cause you to take "pause?" Wouldn't you be a little angry that this person never served time-for-the-crime??

Sure, Fonda never violated a child, but, to many American's, and especially those who served in Viet Nam, Fonda violated their personal value, worth, and service to this country.

So, just what would you feel, about the molester coming back into your life 40years after their sin against you and your child???

I'm sorry, but, true forgiveness is only capable by God... we are not God, and never will be. Accept the fact that we are humans, and subject to sin, that is why I John 1:8-9 exists - to remind us of our imperfections. As for being gods, only Mormons can expect to gain that eternal reward!

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

Jane Fonda never committed a crime or violated anyone comparably to a child molester so your analogy breaks down there.

In answer to your question though. If it had been forty years since the incident with no repetition, the person had since been saved and openly professed Christ I hope I could exercise forgiveness. I don't know for sure though.

Here is another scenario. Suppose there was a man who had been involved in violence against a preacher, consenting to that preacher's death. He also travelled all over the world attacking, persecuting, and arresting believers. Part of his job was to go to communities and spy on the Christians there to turn them in.

He supposedly gets saved and wants to come preach in your little church. Would you let him?

 

[righteousdude2]

Ditto.

Jane Fonda never committed a crime or violated anyone comparably to a child molester so your analogy breaks down there.

In answer to your question though. If it had been forty years since the incident with no repetition, the person had since been saved and openly professed Christ I hope I could exercise forgiveness. I don't know for sure though.

Here is another scenario. Suppose there was a man who had been involved in violence against a preacher, consenting to that preacher's death. He also travelled all over the world attacking, persecuting, and arresting believers. Part of his job was to go to communities and spy on the Christians there to turn them in.

He supposedly gets saved and wants to come preach in your little church. Would you let him?

Like you... I would hope I could find it within me to do just that... but, I don't think I'd let him stay the night in my home, while I slept.

I'd probably put him up in a local hotel, just so I could get a good night's sleep:thumbs:

Thanks for your honesty, and I hope you accept mine. As for my analogy breaking down, I don't think it does. In an emotional way, Fonda violated the hearts and minds of many. There is physical violation/rape, and there is emotional/mental violation/rape. I've done enough counselling to know what I'm talking about... I've dealt with many people who have felt they were violated, for instance, by someone who broke into their home and stole from them. They felt emtionally violated... hope you see what I'm saying. I felt the analogy was a good one, but, you and I don't seem to see eye-to-eye very often. You must be a little taller than me, or, vice versa??? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Steven2006]

As far as forgiveness, she has never done anything to me personally. I was not a fan of her antics during the war, but I am not convinced she committed a crime and I see no benefit to harbor any anger towards her.

I generally don't hold grudges towards people especially people I have never even met.

Even when people have wronged me personally I have forgiven them without them coming to me and asking for it. Not to say I forget, but harboring anger is of no use or benefit to me.

IMHO there are so many more productive things to focus on than what Jane Fonda did almost a half a century ago.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

As far as forgiveness, she has never done anything to me personally. I was not a fan of her antics during the war, but I am not convinced she committed a crime and I see no benefit to harbor any anger towards her.

I generally don't hold grudges towards people especially people I have never even met.

Even when people have wronged me personally I have forgiven them without them coming to me and asking for it. Not to say I forget, but harboring anger is of no use or benefit to me.

IMHO there are so many more productive things to focus on than what Jane Fonda did almost a have a century ago.

Excellent post. I would agree.

 

[Tom Bryant]

There really is nothing to forgive her for. She didn't do anything to hurt me. I believe what she did gave aid and comfort to our enemies, but she didn't hurt me. So she doesn't need to ask forgiveness of me.

For me, I have a couple of ideas about forgiveness on a more general basis.

I think we confuse forgiveness with trust. Forgiveness is given by us because God commands it.

Trust is something far different. Trust is earned. I can forgive the person who stole from me. But I am not going to trust them with my house key. Or put them in charge of counting the offering.

I don't think "forgive and forget" is in the Bible for humans. God does not remember our sin because the penalty has already been paid by Christ's death. But no where does the Bible command me to forget. I don't think it is possible to forget for humans. If someone cuts off my right hand in a fit of anger. I can forgive them and not hold them accountable to me for the wrong they did. But everytime I try to grip a golf club or want to search the pockets on the right side of my pants, I am going to remember.

just some thoughts....

 

[donnA]

a crime is a crime no matter who commits it, christian or not, or wether or not the person is saved after a crime, it's still a crime, and their are still a criminal. Some would have us believe christians are not answerable for crimes committed.

Here is another scenario. Suppose there was a man who had been involved in violence against a preacher, consenting to that preacher's death. He also travelled all over the world attacking, persecuting, and arresting believers. Part of his job was to go to communities and spy on the Christians there to turn them in.

Paul broke no laws, and had legal consent, this is different and can not be compared.

 

[kyredneck]

....Paul broke no laws, and had legal consent, this is different and can not be compared.

......"yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God."

What a jolt it must have been for him to hear those words:

....."Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"

 

[righteousdude2]

Great Point... There are Born-Agains Still in Prison!

a crime is a crime no matter who commits it, christian or not, or wether or not the person is saved after a crime, it's still a crime, and their are still a criminal. Some would have us believe christians are not answerable for crimes committed.

Paul broke no laws, and had legal consent, this is different and can not be compared.

Do-the-crime-do-the-time... just because a person accepts Jesus, after they commit a crime against humanity, does not mean that this society has the moral, or legal obligation to forgive their crime.

Fonda committed a crime against humanity by "dissing" her nation. I wonder if she realizes that the God she claims to belong to now, was the author of many wars throughout the OT.

Maybe - when she gets to reading about how the Israelites went into Jericho and killed every living thing - she may start a war protest agaisnt God for His acts of wrath against the enemies of Israel!

After all, she turned on her birth nation, why not her Kingdom nation???

 

[abcgrad94]

Maybe - when she gets to reading about how the Israelis went into Jericho and killed every living thing - she may start a war protest agaisnt God for His acts of wrath against the enemies of Israel!

After all, she turned on her birth nation, why not her born-again Father?

I am sorry that Jane Fonda offended so many of our wonderful vets, and I understand why some might want to see her punished. Unfortunately, life is not fair and justice is not always served here on earth. I have struggled with the concept many times, although from pain inflicted on me by people I actually know.

I believe that forgiveness is actually trusting God to take care of retribution. It is purposely deciding not to "get even" with the wrongdoer, but to accept the fact that while the person may never see true justice on earth, they certainly will in heaven.

Of course this doesn't mean you let someone harm your child or commit a crime with no legal consequence. But sometimes, the laws of the land are not enough, or are not enforced. In that case, we must recognize that God is the true judge and we should trust him. If not, the desire for revenge will eat at us and cause seeds of bitterness to stunt our spiritual growth.

 

[saturneptune]

What some of you are saying is that forgiveness is seperate and apart from the penalty for the given sin or infraction. Over and over again, I have seen situations where "we forgive you" but you are banned for life from this job or that position.

Several years ago, here locally, there was a public high school teacher who had been teaching for 7 or 8 years. Some of her students (dont ask me how because I have no idea) got hold of some pornographic tapes from twelve years previous, and the teacher was a star in one of them. She gave up the business, went on to get a college degree in teaching, had married and had school age children in the mean time. When the students saw the film, they went to the school officials for our community. There was a lot of local debate over the matter, but in the end, her contract was voided, and she moved on somewhere else. My whole point in telling this story is that each situation has to be treated seperately. To condemn someone to a lifetime ban from a particular role in life as a general rule is IMO not good judgement or forgiveness. What purpose did it serve to bring all of this out when the teacher had turned her life around other than pure meanness on the student's part.

There are some instances where a life time ban is warranted. I have always wondered, those who shout the loudest about forgive but not forget, what is it that is in their closest that would keep them from some occupation if all was known. Scripture says one day every thought, deed, and action by everyone will be known to all.

As far as Jane Fonda goes, I was there, so I will keep those thoughts to myself, as is pointed out above, anger does no good a half century later.

 

[John Toppass]

Forgiving someone is not the same as letting them do whatever they want without regard to their weakness. The OP talked about someone who molested a child. That person may have become born again since the crime, but anyone with knowledge of the offense would be negligent by letting that person expose themselves to a circumstance in which they have a weakness.

Tom Bryant was right, when he said that forgiveness and trust are often confused. They are not the same.

Even Paul had to go where he was not known to study and hone his gifts of Christianity. I can imagine that there are some cases, such as that of a child molester, where they may be forgiven but the trust that people naturally share with each other may never be gained or earned because of their previous actions.

 

[Robert Snow]

Jane Fonda was never charged with a crime. The government, for some reason, decided not to charge her. What was she supposed to do, charge herself and break into jail?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Do-the-crime-do-the-time... just because a person accepts Jesus, after they commit a crime against humanity, does not mean that this society has the moral, or legal obligation to forgive their crime.

Instead of worrying about what society says, we should be more concerned with what the Bible says.

Christians should hate the sin but love the sinner, we can love the perpetrator, but hate his/her crime.

We may forgive the sinner, but still not forgive his crime. How many times have you known someone who you liked, but hated something they did in their past? There IS a difference.

We are commanded to love and forgive the person, but we should never condone their crime. Too many people don't get this part. They hate a certain crime, therefore they cannot forgive any person who commits it.

Either the blood covers ALL sins...or it covers NONE (and that includes yours and mine).

 

[righteousdude2]

The Blood Does Cover All Sin, BUT...

Either the blood covers ALL sins...or it covers NONE (and that includes yours and mine).

... that covering is only in the eyes of God. God will not allow unrepentant sinners to enter eternity. He will send them to eternal fire and damnation. Does that make Him a bad God? He never expected any of us to be able to do more than forgive, that is why you don't see the teaching for us to "forget" what others did. That is a gift that only a Creator has the ability to do...

Sure His blood covers it all... but, there are things that people do, that even though God may forgive them, their actions may not be forgotten, and that is because none of us are expected, by the Father, to be all forgiving. It is hard enough for many of us to fully forgive our own sins.

To the vet that had to "kill-or-be-killed" that stain and scar will always be in their memory. Asking the vet to do something like forgive Fonda, when they were placed in the position of taking another's life - in the name of war - well, that makes Fonda's actions that much more difficult to forget. Because every time they close their eyes, I can tell you that many still see the face of Viet Cong soldier they were forced to kill in order to make it back home.

Fonda's actions, are also, stained within the memory of those vets, because - at that time - she defiled their patriotism and service to this nation.

Most of you can't understand (and praise God you can't understand) just how deep her deceitful actions went, and the problem with her is, she can't see how deeply she hurt these vets.:tear:

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but, you had to be there to fully understand the mindset of the battle scarred vet of any war or conflict...raying:

 

[Aschultz73]

While I was born just after the war I have seen its effects on my family. My uncle used to get up in the middle of the night looking for his weapon and suffered many other things that even as a child made me wonder. How blessed to see him still alive after all these years and living as a servant to God.

Jane Fonda did betray many when she did what she did. But if she has become a born again Bible believeing Christian then what can I say? The Lord came to save the sick and nothing more. If she accepts Him then it is between her and God. There is nothing more I can judge than that.

 

[saturneptune]

Forgiving someone is not the same as letting them do whatever they want without regard to their weakness. The OP talked about someone who molested a child. That person may have become born again since the crime, but anyone with knowledge of the offense would be negligent by letting that person expose themselves to a circumstance in which they have a weakness.

Tom Bryant was right, when he said that forgiveness and trust are often confused. They are not the same.

Even Paul had to go where he was not known to study and hone his gifts of Christianity. I can imagine that there are some cases, such as that of a child molester, where they may be forgiven but the trust that people naturally share with each other may never be gained or earned because of their previous actions.

It may never be regained, but then again, it may. If one used your standard that trust and forgiveness are not the same 100% of the time, then all marriages where cheating took place would never be restored. Had we used that standard in the Bible, Paul would never have been used of the Lord to spread the Gospel or write several books of the Bible. David would probably have ceased to be king of Israel. Jacob may have never become father of the nation Israel becuase of his deception of his father and brother.

It is really not up to you or me who does or who does not have a position of restored trust, just because one puts a certain act or crime above another. That is the Lord's business.

 

[donnA]

Either the blood covers ALL sins...or it covers NONE (and that includes yours and mine).

it has nothing to do with commiting a crime, the person may be forgiven by God, but the legal system has penalty for crimes. Just how far are we to go in allowing people to get away with crimes, murder, molestation, robbery, if they get saved they are no longer responsbale to the state?

 

[John Toppass]

It may never be regained, but then again, it may. If one used your standard that trust and forgiveness are not the same 100% of the time, then all marriages where cheating took place would never be restored. Had we used that standard in the Bible, Paul would never have been used of the Lord to spread the Gospel or write several books of the Bible. David would probably have ceased to be king of Israel. Jacob may have never become father of the nation Israel because of his deception of his father and brother.

It is really not up to you or me who does or who does not have a position of restored trust, just because one puts a certain act or crime above another. That is the Lord's business.

Excuse Me? Where did I say 100% of the time? Did you even read what I wrote? I did say we have a responsibility not to put someone with a known weakness in a tempting circumstance.

I appreciate your response but I can't figure out as usual what you are responding too. Sorry to be blunt but you do this often, this is the first time with me tho. I forgive you and I trust you will be more careful next time.:flower:

 

[HAMel]

Jane Fonda WAS a traitor to this country for liberal political reason's. She DID violate our laws. The ONLY reason she wasn't tried for her crime was because of Political Correctness.

Her action(s) DID hurt our troops in Vietnam! Young men and women over there serving our country because our country called on them and they felt it their patriotic duty to serve.

Jane Fonda was but a rich spoiled brat. Do I forgive her for her actions? No! Does this bother me being a Christian? No. I would reach out to her as I would anyone and even though she has since apologized, I'm still not Fonda Jane!

She has continued to live a very luxurious life style never ever having to wonder where the money was going to come from for the next electric bill. Sorry, but I cannot forgive her for her participation in supporting the North.

In addition, I made it a point to boycott every movie she has participated in since that incident.