-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
January - Reading 1
- Thread starter bb_baptist
- Start date
John Wells
New Member
Gina,
You are correct. All of mankind are eternal beings. Some will spend eternity in heaven, and many will spend eternity in the "lake of fire!" Many unbelievers say, "Well, if I'm wrong I'll just die and that will be the end of it!" Wrong!
You are correct. All of mankind are eternal beings. Some will spend eternity in heaven, and many will spend eternity in the "lake of fire!" Many unbelievers say, "Well, if I'm wrong I'll just die and that will be the end of it!" Wrong!
John Wells
New Member
Bro Glen,
Genesis 1:27,31 (ESV)
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
If God had created man to die, how could God have said "it was very good?" Look forward to your response.
John (The Baptist)
Genesis 1:27,31 (ESV)
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
If God had created man to die, how could God have said "it was very good?" Look forward to your response.
John (The Baptist)
Bible Believing Bill
<img src =/bbb.jpg>
Helen,
Thanks for the info on the genologies. I was wondering what was the significance of the number 14. I hadn't thought of it being a multiple of 7. I know many numbers has special significance and that 7 represents Jesus.
That being said, then we can see the significance of the 7 day week. God rested on the seventh day.
Bill
Thanks for the info on the genologies. I was wondering what was the significance of the number 14. I hadn't thought of it being a multiple of 7. I know many numbers has special significance and that 7 represents Jesus.
That being said, then we can see the significance of the 7 day week. God rested on the seventh day.
Bill
John I didn't say that! I did not imply he was created to die but to say he was created eternal implies IMHO that he could not die! We can attest by scripture that the law was not in effect until God gave it, and that implies that when man was created he was good, indeed very good... but not eternal... Brother Glen
A little more here:
KayDee, you mentioned the Gap Theory -- or that 'whole bunch of stuff' which was supposed to happen between Genesis 1 and 2.
Ain't there. There is no gap. The first verse of Genesis is the creation of time, space, and mass from nothing -- they physical universe. The second verse tells us what condition all this stuff was in -- formless and void, meaning it had no solid shape and it had no intrinsic organization. It was just 'stuff' or 'mass.' THEN God started organizing it!
A good explanation of the Gap theory was found by one of our folks back on the old Creation/Evolution board. It is Walt Brown's site, here http://www.creationscience.com/
There's an alphabet on the page near the bottom. Click on 'g' for 'gap' and when you see 'gap theory', go there.
Is man eternal? Not in the past, but in the future, yes. Jesus indicates that very clearly at the end of the parable of the sheep and goats when He says
"Then they [the goats] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
So however long eternal life is, that's how long eternal punishment is, and that is how long we will be in existence.
I heard something from a pastor once that really stuck with me, and I've thought about a lot since:
"Only one Man was born to die. The rest were born to live."
Sometimes I wonder what horrid pain we have caused God...
I know that I have, when this thought strikes a little too deeply once in awhile, apologized to Him for the whole human race -- myself very much included! Yes, I'm saved for sure and for good, but when I think of the cost, and the pain...
KayDee, you mentioned the Gap Theory -- or that 'whole bunch of stuff' which was supposed to happen between Genesis 1 and 2.
Ain't there. There is no gap. The first verse of Genesis is the creation of time, space, and mass from nothing -- they physical universe. The second verse tells us what condition all this stuff was in -- formless and void, meaning it had no solid shape and it had no intrinsic organization. It was just 'stuff' or 'mass.' THEN God started organizing it!
A good explanation of the Gap theory was found by one of our folks back on the old Creation/Evolution board. It is Walt Brown's site, here http://www.creationscience.com/
There's an alphabet on the page near the bottom. Click on 'g' for 'gap' and when you see 'gap theory', go there.
Is man eternal? Not in the past, but in the future, yes. Jesus indicates that very clearly at the end of the parable of the sheep and goats when He says
"Then they [the goats] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
So however long eternal life is, that's how long eternal punishment is, and that is how long we will be in existence.
I heard something from a pastor once that really stuck with me, and I've thought about a lot since:
"Only one Man was born to die. The rest were born to live."
Sometimes I wonder what horrid pain we have caused God...
I know that I have, when this thought strikes a little too deeply once in awhile, apologized to Him for the whole human race -- myself very much included! Yes, I'm saved for sure and for good, but when I think of the cost, and the pain...
If man was created eternal, then what were the trees of the garden for? They were to sustain his life as he lived in the garden. Notice Eve says to the serpent, We may freely eat of all the trees of the garden... Notice included in that was the tree of life... because God told Adam they were to him for food. It never says in scripture he did not partake of the tree of life. The one tree they were forbidden to eat was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God told them in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. So disobeying God brought death upon him and all his posterity. He was driven out of the garden where he was placed to tend and keep it and the trees that sustained his life even the tree of life was unacessible to him.
Notice also man was formed outside the garden and put in it. Woman was taken from man in the garden... Christ restored man from his fallen state in the garden of Gathsemene... When he decalred If their be any other way let this cup pass from me but not my will but thine be done... Brother Glen
Notice also man was formed outside the garden and put in it. Woman was taken from man in the garden... Christ restored man from his fallen state in the garden of Gathsemene... When he decalred If their be any other way let this cup pass from me but not my will but thine be done... Brother Glen
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tyndale1946:
If man was created eternal, then what were the trees of the garden for? They were to sustain his life as he lived in the garden. Notice Eve says to the serpent, We may freely eat of all the trees of the garden... Notice included in that was the tree of life... because God told Adam they were to him for food. It never says in scripture he did not partake of the tree of life. The one tree they were forbidden to eat was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God told them in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. So disobeying God brought death upon him and all his posterity. He was driven out of the garden where he was placed to tend and keep it and the trees that sustained his life even the tree of life was unacessible to him.
Notice also man was formed outside the garden and put in it. Woman was taken from man in the garden... Christ restored man from his fallen state in the garden of Gathsemene... When he decalred If their be any other way let this cup pass from me but not my will but thine be done... Brother Glen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In Revelation we see the Tree of Life is for healing. Life itself comes from God.
As far as eating was concerned before the Fall, why not?
And I am not sure where you get the doctrine that Christ restored man in the Garden of Gethsemane? -- if that were true He sure didn't need to be crucified!
But the wages of sin are death. And He took our wages for us. That was death. Prayer in the Garden the night before was for His strengthening for what He had to deal with in the coming hours.
If man was created eternal, then what were the trees of the garden for? They were to sustain his life as he lived in the garden. Notice Eve says to the serpent, We may freely eat of all the trees of the garden... Notice included in that was the tree of life... because God told Adam they were to him for food. It never says in scripture he did not partake of the tree of life. The one tree they were forbidden to eat was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God told them in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. So disobeying God brought death upon him and all his posterity. He was driven out of the garden where he was placed to tend and keep it and the trees that sustained his life even the tree of life was unacessible to him.
Notice also man was formed outside the garden and put in it. Woman was taken from man in the garden... Christ restored man from his fallen state in the garden of Gathsemene... When he decalred If their be any other way let this cup pass from me but not my will but thine be done... Brother Glen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In Revelation we see the Tree of Life is for healing. Life itself comes from God.
As far as eating was concerned before the Fall, why not?
And I am not sure where you get the doctrine that Christ restored man in the Garden of Gethsemane? -- if that were true He sure didn't need to be crucified!
But the wages of sin are death. And He took our wages for us. That was death. Prayer in the Garden the night before was for His strengthening for what He had to deal with in the coming hours.
I know he prayed in the garden of Gethsemene and was strengthened for what lied ahead but the afformation that there was no other way declared that he was the only way to restore man back to the place before the fall... Sinless... The scriptures state nothing less... Brother Glen
Helen wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>KayDee, you mentioned the Gap Theory -- or that 'whole bunch of stuff' which was supposed to happen between Genesis 1 and 2.
Ain't there. There is no gap. The first verse of Genesis is the creation of time, space, and mass from nothing -- they physical universe. The second verse tells us what condition all this stuff was in -- formless and void, meaning it had no solid shape and it had no intrinsic organization. It was just 'stuff' or 'mass.' THEN God started organizing it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with you 100%. I guess my post was misleading in that it sounded like I was thinking the Gap Theroy held some merit. I was trying to understand where those that do hold to it find Scripture they think back up their theroy. It seems to me one doesn't have to go further than Romans 5:12 to show death entered the world through sin through the one man Adam.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>KayDee, you mentioned the Gap Theory -- or that 'whole bunch of stuff' which was supposed to happen between Genesis 1 and 2.
Ain't there. There is no gap. The first verse of Genesis is the creation of time, space, and mass from nothing -- they physical universe. The second verse tells us what condition all this stuff was in -- formless and void, meaning it had no solid shape and it had no intrinsic organization. It was just 'stuff' or 'mass.' THEN God started organizing it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with you 100%. I guess my post was misleading in that it sounded like I was thinking the Gap Theroy held some merit. I was trying to understand where those that do hold to it find Scripture they think back up their theroy. It seems to me one doesn't have to go further than Romans 5:12 to show death entered the world through sin through the one man Adam.
John Wells
New Member
Genesis 3:19 (ESV)
19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
Man, by sin, became mortal. Although he did not die the moment he ate (by God’s mercy), he was changed immediately and became liable to all the sufferings and miseries of life, to , and to the pains of hell forever. Adam lived 930 years. -- MacArthur, J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (Electronic ed.) (Ge 3:19). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.
Romans 5:12 (ESV)
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and through sin, and so spread to all men because all sinned—
No sin = no death!
[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: John Wells ]
19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
Man, by sin, became mortal. Although he did not die the moment he ate (by God’s mercy), he was changed immediately and became liable to all the sufferings and miseries of life, to , and to the pains of hell forever. Adam lived 930 years. -- MacArthur, J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (Electronic ed.) (Ge 3:19). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.
Romans 5:12 (ESV)
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and through sin, and so spread to all men because all sinned—
No sin = no death!
[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: John Wells ]
YEA HATH GOD SAID!... To me this is the most powerful scripture in the bible in reference to the walk of the child of God. When we are tempted thus we can replied like he who loved us with an everlasting love did... IT IS WRITTEN... Brother Glen
I was out all day, but I did read.
I'm actually on day 4 in the program. The readings seem too chopped up to me, so in the morning I read the NT passages for two days, and in the evening I read the OT passages for two days.
For me the continuity of the passages are maintained better and I have some time to reflect on them before I post!
I'm actually on day 4 in the program. The readings seem too chopped up to me, so in the morning I read the NT passages for two days, and in the evening I read the OT passages for two days.
For me the continuity of the passages are maintained better and I have some time to reflect on them before I post!
Margie and I, too, have begun our readings. BTW, Mr. Tyndale, the scholars of the NIV also hold to your immortality before the fall interpretation. This forum seems to be off to a good start. Very manageable amount of text to read in an evening. I hope none of you mind if I lag a day or two behind you as last night I did not read until 10:30pm or so.
I would also like to add that different people get different revalations from scripture. I would hate to see this forum converted to the creation/evolution forum if one did not agree with literalism. I think all of us as Christians have much to gain from the opening chapters of the Bible. The moral lessons and the analogies to modern life are what matter most to the modern man (or woman). What really matters is that we are here now and face temptations just as Adam and Eve did.
I am very enthusiastic about this forum. I appreciate all of the commentary so far.
May God bless you
- Clint
I would also like to add that different people get different revalations from scripture. I would hate to see this forum converted to the creation/evolution forum if one did not agree with literalism. I think all of us as Christians have much to gain from the opening chapters of the Bible. The moral lessons and the analogies to modern life are what matter most to the modern man (or woman). What really matters is that we are here now and face temptations just as Adam and Eve did.
I am very enthusiastic about this forum. I appreciate all of the commentary so far.
May God bless you
- Clint
Purple Lady
<img src=/PurpleLady2.jpg>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helen:
My personal opinion, given what has been found by spacecraft re-entering the earth's atmosphere, is that there was a vapor canopy, but it was MUCH higher than the clouds we see, which are in our lowest atmospheric level, the troposphere. I think the vapor canopy was in a higher area called the 'thermosphere' which encompasses about a 300 mile thick blanket around the earth above the stratosphere, and above the ozone layer. Evidence of some strange 'water droplets' is still up there, sparking some really strange theories from those who are not remembering the Bible.
This vapor canopy would have at least in part been destroyed by the scalding waters of the Flood disturbing the temperature gradients of our atmospheric layers. Evidence for this would be in the radically reduced age spans of the humans after the Flood. An average age span of about 900 years is in evidence before the Flood, while afterwards it drops to about 400-450 almost immediately. This would indicate that the vapor canopy's main purpose was protection from UV radiation, which is what not only is the main known cause of mutations in our genetic structure, but the main cause of premature aging as well.
God bless us all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I need a little more help with this. The way I understand it, is that the water ABOVE the firmament is above the lights (sun, moon) so the water above must be much higher than our atmosphere. If I understand this right, then it doesn't make sense that the flood could have come from this water.
Helen, are you saying you think the vapor canopy is the same as the water above the expanse?
Sorry, I'm a little slow here.
Carolyn
My personal opinion, given what has been found by spacecraft re-entering the earth's atmosphere, is that there was a vapor canopy, but it was MUCH higher than the clouds we see, which are in our lowest atmospheric level, the troposphere. I think the vapor canopy was in a higher area called the 'thermosphere' which encompasses about a 300 mile thick blanket around the earth above the stratosphere, and above the ozone layer. Evidence of some strange 'water droplets' is still up there, sparking some really strange theories from those who are not remembering the Bible.
This vapor canopy would have at least in part been destroyed by the scalding waters of the Flood disturbing the temperature gradients of our atmospheric layers. Evidence for this would be in the radically reduced age spans of the humans after the Flood. An average age span of about 900 years is in evidence before the Flood, while afterwards it drops to about 400-450 almost immediately. This would indicate that the vapor canopy's main purpose was protection from UV radiation, which is what not only is the main known cause of mutations in our genetic structure, but the main cause of premature aging as well.
God bless us all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I need a little more help with this. The way I understand it, is that the water ABOVE the firmament is above the lights (sun, moon) so the water above must be much higher than our atmosphere. If I understand this right, then it doesn't make sense that the flood could have come from this water.
Helen, are you saying you think the vapor canopy is the same as the water above the expanse?
Sorry, I'm a little slow here.
Carolyn
HI Carolyn,
In the past year's astronomy articles, it seems there is water just about everyplace where we would least expect it!
Asteroids and meteorites can have high water content. Someone discovered something about water and stars!!! We have water droplets and ice crystals in the thermosphere...
I'm not going to try to draw any adamant conclusions here! We just don't know enough.
I do think there is strong evidence that there was a vapor canopy in our upper atmosphere which was destroyed. The word "firmament" or 'raqia' simply means 'expanse' with the implication from the root of being stretched out. So it can mean our atmosphere or the entire universe. Or both, perhaps, depending on context!
I am willing to go with the idea that at least some of the separated waters of Genesis 1, day 2, ended up in our upper atmosphere protecting us from UV radiation, increasing air pressure, and keeping the earth's environment quite uniform and stable.
As I mentioned at the end of today's (Jan 3) post, however, I really really want to be in a front row seat when God shows the videotape of creation in heaven! (Translated: I am eager to find out what really happened!)
I would caution that while it is fun to explore these issues, these are not salvation issues. In other words if I am wrong or anyone else is wrong, that's OK. Jesus is still right!
Where I do take a stand is on the straightforward meaning of Genesis in the areas where is IS clear, such as a recent creation, creation of initial populations of plants and animals by kind, man being utterly unique and specially created, a real world-wide Flood, etc.
God bless.
Helen
In the past year's astronomy articles, it seems there is water just about everyplace where we would least expect it!
Asteroids and meteorites can have high water content. Someone discovered something about water and stars!!! We have water droplets and ice crystals in the thermosphere...
I'm not going to try to draw any adamant conclusions here! We just don't know enough.
I do think there is strong evidence that there was a vapor canopy in our upper atmosphere which was destroyed. The word "firmament" or 'raqia' simply means 'expanse' with the implication from the root of being stretched out. So it can mean our atmosphere or the entire universe. Or both, perhaps, depending on context!
I am willing to go with the idea that at least some of the separated waters of Genesis 1, day 2, ended up in our upper atmosphere protecting us from UV radiation, increasing air pressure, and keeping the earth's environment quite uniform and stable.
As I mentioned at the end of today's (Jan 3) post, however, I really really want to be in a front row seat when God shows the videotape of creation in heaven! (Translated: I am eager to find out what really happened!)
I would caution that while it is fun to explore these issues, these are not salvation issues. In other words if I am wrong or anyone else is wrong, that's OK. Jesus is still right!
Where I do take a stand is on the straightforward meaning of Genesis in the areas where is IS clear, such as a recent creation, creation of initial populations of plants and animals by kind, man being utterly unique and specially created, a real world-wide Flood, etc.
God bless.
Helen
Ok, I'm playing catch up here! I've read all up to date so far except for Genesis, which I plan to finish and catch up on tonight.
But I did notice the eternal vs. non-eternalness (sp?) of Adam. We are all ETERNAL, believers and non-believers alike. The question I would ask is whether Adam was created to die? We know that when we are born, we begin to die...I would tend to believe that Adam was created NOT to die, but was given free will and chose to disobey God, which had consequences...unfortunately, it was death...lucky for him (and us) it wasn't instantaneous.
Kathy
<><
But I did notice the eternal vs. non-eternalness (sp?) of Adam. We are all ETERNAL, believers and non-believers alike. The question I would ask is whether Adam was created to die? We know that when we are born, we begin to die...I would tend to believe that Adam was created NOT to die, but was given free will and chose to disobey God, which had consequences...unfortunately, it was death...lucky for him (and us) it wasn't instantaneous.
Kathy
<><
John Wells
New Member
2 Timothy 1:9 (NKJV)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
These verses can mean only one thing. The business of election (God choosing whom He will save) was settled before the creation process began! They also testify that God knew "The Fall" was coming because He determined who He was going to save out of it!
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
These verses can mean only one thing. The business of election (God choosing whom He will save) was settled before the creation process began! They also testify that God knew "The Fall" was coming because He determined who He was going to save out of it!
Cross reference links on the Board
Read through the Bible Forum:
Topic: Genesis 1-2 -- Creation
[ January 01, 2004, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
Read through the Bible Forum:
Topic: Genesis 1-2 -- Creation
[ January 01, 2004, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]