JC pennys Now 'officially" A gay friendly Company!

[HeirofSalvation]

By "THIS" I mean: Whether it is a sin to shop at JC Penney.

No, it is not a "sin", and I doubt that any Bible-believer here would claim that it is. I do not believe anyone has suggested that it is either....If they did, they would be wrong to do so.

 

[12strings]

No, it is not a "sin", and I doubt that any Bible-believer here would claim that it is. I do not believe anyone has suggested that it is either....If they did, they would be wrong to do so.

It has been implied that if we, knowing what we now know about JC Penney's direction of promotion, continued shopping there, were are supporting and participating in their sin. (I think it has been more than implied, but It has AT LEAST been implied.)

 

[Yeshua1]

It has been implied that if we, knowing what we now know about JC Penney's direction of promotion, continued shopping there, were are supporting and participating in their sin. (I think it has been more than implied, but It has AT LEAST been implied.)

if one is persuaded/convicted that it would be a wrong thing to do, than to them to violate that and still shop there would be a sin!

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Don't lie, you know and I know the somewhat common perverted jesture your little "happy, jumping for joy" man is making and your reason for using it is obviously based on that perspective.

You are not privy to my private thoughts, but you are so very wrong. You must be really twisted to see something wrong with that little stick man. I don't see anything "perverted" at all about it. You really do need to take a chill pill and reassess your priorities. If that get's you all riled up, I can only imagine what some real problem must do to you. Sucks to be you, I guess.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Morality.....is, in fact, the only thing you CAN legislate. This is a favorite canard, usually used by the godless, but it is also poorly thought through. The exact converse is in fact true. Think about it.

Ah, but you misread. I stated that society at large dictates morals. Sure, the churches are part of it. However there are others in our pluralistic society who do not hold to Christianity. It is not right to impose a religious standard on society as a whole; to people who do not subscribe to its tenets. Indeed, there if you legislate by region, then WHOSE religion? Catholics? Mormons? Presbyterians? Muslims? Wiccans? All are part of our society. You can believe what you wish, but you have no right to dictate to the other citizens of this secular republic.

One has no choice but to mix the two.

Separation of government and religion is a foundational part of our country. It has given us the freedoms we enjoy and is good for both church and state.

I do not mean to insult you, I mean this only in friendly concern and Christian love...:flower:
Reading your posts on this and several other threads raises some alarm bells to me. I am pretty sure I am not the only one who senses this. I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of your faith or your salvation, but you seem to think more like the world than a child of Christ. Your mind does not seem to have been "transformed" on the most basic of levels. There is always a process which is never-ending of sanctification for all of us, but generally speaking...quite frankly, you don't "sound" like a Christian, you don't seem to have the "mind" of a Child of God. You may be a new Christian, and that is naturally a process. Moreover, you are likely in an environment not particularly conducive to learning Biblical thinking. That would have an effect on you not helpful for a transformation from thinking as the world does to thinking as a Christian should. I appreciate your participation on this board, and I thank you for your willingness to communicate. I hope you are here for a long time brother!! :wavey:

I am not insulted. I appreciate where you are coming from. I once was very fundamentalist in my views, but over time they have...excuse the word...evolved. While I have deeply held personal convictions, I also strongly support our form of government and the secular nature of it. That is the only way to justly govern a diverse people. BTW, I have been a Christian for nearly 50 years, so there is little I have not studied. Thanks for your kind demeanor and concern.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Thank you for your responses :thumbsup:

Ah, but you misread. I stated that society at large dictates morals. Sure, the churches are part of it. However there are others in our pluralistic society who do not hold to Christianity.

"Society at large" is I think...an impossible way to dictate morality...It will default to a morality of majority...it would be fallacious at best. All that would occur is perhaps a consensus of merely BASIC sets of ground rules and they would be dictated by what would, by definition, be groundless and ever-changing whims of a majority. Clearly, if 51% of a populace feels that slavery is o.k.....or if I (as a white person) and my fellow compadres decide that to enslave a minority of say, Asians or Blacks again...there would be no fundamental source of appeal.....you would dislike it...but you would have no fundamental grounding moral LAW to stand on to proclaim it "WRONG". Surely you might see that this is no way to build a workable society, at least not one which would stand the test of time. You are indeed correct that there are non-Christians aplenty in our society....but frankly, it is not as though I would pretend that this is for anything but the ultimate fragmentation and detriment of our society as a whole. Shiny happy people believing anything they very well feel like is charming at woodstock...but I think no historian will argue that a culture won't crumble like this. It simply doesn't work.

It is not right to impose a religious standard on society as a whole; to people who do not subscribe to its tenets.

Why not?.............before you are overly swift to answer this...think about it.....Says Who? Who are YOU to judge, after all, whether I decide to impose my morality on another? Why can't I? To what standard do you appeal?

Indeed, there if you legislate by region, then WHOSE religion? Catholics? Mormons? Presbyterians? Muslims? Wiccans? All are part of our society.

They are indeed, and, as far as the cohesion of society is concerned...it is also not helpful.

You can believe what you wish, but you have no right to dictate to the other citizens of this secular republic.

Again, I ask you....Says who? Why not?

Separation of government and religion is a foundational part of our country.
It has given us the freedoms we enjoy and is good for both church and state.

This is two-edged....on a fundamental level, it is true, but not in the same sense as it is commonly used and understood today.

I am not insulted. I appreciate where you are coming from. I once was very fundamentalist in my views, but over time they have...excuse the word...evolved. While I have deeply held personal convictions, I also strongly support our form of government and the secular nature of it. That is the only way to justly govern a diverse people. BTW, I have been a Christian for nearly 50 years, so there is little I have not studied. Thanks for your kind demeanor and concern.

I am glad you are here on BB....thank you for engaging us in conversation :wavey:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

It has been implied that if we, knowing what we now know about JC Penney's direction of promotion, continued shopping there, were are supporting and participating in their sin. (I think it has been more than implied, but It has AT LEAST been implied.)

Well, while I might, or another might disagree...it is decidedly no SIN for someone to feel differently about whether one should "boycott" or not. Padre is quite correct...it is no "Great Commission" issue...There is no direct Scriptural command to involve oneself in that way....I would encourage others to do so, but it is no sin to think otherwise.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Magnetic Poles:
If the Bible were the law of the land, then you'd probably be right. However, we live under a secular government, based on the Constitution of the United States. You should not mix the two.

Originally Posted by Magnetic Poles
My only agenda is to have a reasoned debate on both sides of the issue. I have tried to point out that one's religious beliefs, while certainly valid, are not the basis of our law. That we should not vote on people's rights anymore than we should vote on yours or mine.

I notice you are quick to address a sarcastic “duh” and are quick to defend the intensions of your signature line with such arguments that I cannot know your private thoughts, yet you totally avoid trying to support your view that a Christian should not include his values arrived from Biblical principles into his decisions made when establishing the laws of the land against a Biblical rebuttal made against you. I have presented scripture that seems to suggest otherwise to your view, Mr. “X-fundamental that has been a Christian for 50 years and doesn’t have much he hasn’t studied” so please do show me some of that “reasoned debate” and present some logic from a Christian perspective, and not only a secular one to support your view. After all it is “supposed” to be a Christian board for “Christian debate”, is it not?

It is said you can know the opponents weakest argument in what he avoids responding to. Rhetoric aside, here is a repost of my argument against yours supported from a Biblical Christian perspective which you have avoided:

Originally Posted by Benjamin:
I’m aware that you believe when it comes to establishing the laws of the land them Christians need to leave their values and principles at the door. But pal, when you come to a Christian board proselytizing that the wisdom of the world should take precedency over Christian values then expect to be confronted because it is the "basis", the foundation from upon which we come to our decisions.

And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
(Col 3:17)

You see, we not only believe the Bible is Truth but that that Truth can be known and the instructions in that Book are to be followed. The Bible instructs against the very thing you are proposing:

With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
(Eph 6:7-8)

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
(Pro 3:5-7)

Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than he that is perverse in his ways, though he be rich. Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father.
(Pro 28:5-7)

Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.
(Pro 16:3)

These verses seem to say we (Christians) are to form our decisions on the basis of Biblical teaching, does it not?

Here are a couple more scriptures that seem to suggest you should not be conforming to the values of the world which I have also posted that have gone unaddressed by you:

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Rom 12:2)

And here is a bit of wisdom showing that believers can be privy to where one is coming from according to what "his agenda" seems to be followed with a question from Jesus pertaining to the fruit one is known by:

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luk 6:45-46)

 

[padredurand]

I spent a hour talking to a farmer yesterday. His corn is dying in the field, he's getting less than 10 bales to the acre of second cutting of hay and he doesn't think he has enough to pay the feed bill.

....and we're fussing over what department store we will or will not shop at. :tonofbricks:

You can have your thread back.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Benjamin, you are ill informed. You use scriptures out of context. Those are related to our relationship with God and our personal conduct. It has nothing at all to do with any necessity to participate in a boycott with you.

Good day, sir. I am done with you.

 

[Benjamin]

Benjamin, you are ill informed.

Meaningless rhetoric...

You use scriptures out of context.

Meaningless rhetoric...

Those are related to our relationship with God and our personal conduct.

Exactly, and the point you have attempted to proselytize here and continue to dodge is that our personal conduct should be:

“whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus”

“With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men”

“and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him”

“ Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father.”

“Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.”



You not only miss the point of personal conduct but forego the blessing for not doing so.

And now how about instruction of “personal conduct” as it directly relates to unfruitful works of others and to reprove and rebuke them?

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
(Eph 5:11)

He that saith unto the wicked, Thou art righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him: But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them. Every man shall kiss his lips that giveth a right answer.
(Pro 24:24-26)

It has nothing at all to do with any necessity to participate in a boycott with you.

I suppose these (Eph 5:11,Pro 24:24-26) don't any instruction towards one's perssonal conduct in these matters either?

Good day, sir. I am done with you.

Expected as much if asked to support your point from a Christian viewpoint.

:wavey:

But pal, when you come to a Christian board proselytizing that the wisdom of the world should take precedency over Christian values then expect to be confronted because it is the "basis", the foundation from upon which we come to our decisions.