In response to typical ignorance from an Arminian.
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Jerry Walls Refuting Calvinistic Soteriology
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In response to typical ignorance from an Arminian.
AndyMartin
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You are so wrong as I am NOT Arminian
AndyMartin
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Again, typical Calvinist, who gets rude when they know they are wrong!
LOL, have you tracked the number of Arminian groups started by the heresy of Charles Finney and the so-called 2nd Great Awakening? You can thank Arminians for the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Armstrong/Church of God/Hebrew Roots cults. The array of massive heresy attributed to Arminians is staggering.
AndyMartin
Active Member
I am not Arminian! You forgot to mention John and Charles Wesley, who had probably the greatest impact on Christianity around the world, after the Apostle Paul!
John Wesley advocated sinless perfection, a second act of grace, correct? I got into it with one of his adherents who agreed with this heresy. When I asked him the last time he sinned, he left and has yet to return. This was over 6 weeks ago.
AndyMartin
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Well, this shows that we all have our blind-spots. At least Wesley did not condone the murder of someone whom he disagreed with, as Calvin did! Nor teach the great heresy of the Atonement of Jesus Christ as Calvin's hero, Augustine did, that Jesus Christ paid the "ransom" to the devil, which is nothing short of BLASPHEMY! Its interesting that the system of Calvinism comes from this guy, says a lot! I praise the Lord that the "reformed" churches are on the decline, as they preach a gospel that is not found in the Bible
Andy, the "system" you despise comes from the Bible. That other brothers and sisters recognized the truth of election, predestination and grace without merit as taught in the scriptures is wonderful.
AndyMartin
Active Member
I agree that "election, predestination and grace" is indeed taught in Scripture. But, this does not mean that Calvinism has all of the answers! I think it quite arrogant that Calvinists can assume that their "5 points" are 100% Biblical, when in fact the only 1 that is, is the "P". Then to support claims, they twist the Word of God to suit their purposes, like John 3:16-17 where they take "world" to mean "elect", and 2 Peter 2:1, which teaches that Jesus even died for the heretics, again cunning is used to make it say something else.
You struggle with this because you refuse to reconcile your dilemma.
Is man's will greater than God's or is God's will greater than man's?
Clearly not all men are saved. Election shows us that. If the all in Peter ("God wills that all should be saved") is universal then God's will is thwarted and subservient to man's will. If God's will trumps the will of man, then the all must refer to the elect or...all the world is elect (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc.) and you support universalism.
So...
Is man's will greater than God's or is God's will greater than man's?
AndyMartin
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Acts 7:51 answers that: "ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye" "ἀντιπίπτω", "to be adverse, oppose, strive against". This clearly shows that "irresistible grace" is NOT a Bible Truth!
AndyMartin
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Also, Hebrews 12:25, "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven"
"παραιτέομαι", "decline, deprecate, refuse to hear, reject"
2 Thessalonians 2:10 "and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved"
"δέχομαι", "accept, approve, receive"
Acts 13:46, "then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles." "ἀπωθέω", "to thrust away from oneself, to drive away from oneself, i. e. to repudiate, reject, refuse"
Note what Paul here says:
1 the Jews were the ones who rejected the Gospel
2. It was the Jews and not God, who considered themselves unworthy of eternal life
3. This clearly shows that the Gospel message can and is "rejected" by many of the unsaved
4. This will also show that the Calvinistic understanding of "election" is faulty.
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AndyMartin
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Psalm 95:7-11, "For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest"
"qashah", "be hard, severe, fierce, struggle against"
Hebrews 3:8, "Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness"
"σκληρύνω", "to be hardened, i. e. become obstinate or stubborn"
"qashah", "be hard, severe, fierce, struggle against"
Hebrews 3:8, "Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness"
"σκληρύνω", "to be hardened, i. e. become obstinate or stubborn"
AndyMartin
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This is like re-reading a Dean Koontz book (insignificant but entertaining even though you know how it ends).
This is Bible Truth!
Koontz?
AndyMartin
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Sorry....I took you for a Koontz fan.No, what I have shared!
Really? You're plucking one verse and making a claim?
All humans are stiff necked, uncircumcised in the heart and ears, and always resist the Holy Spirit. It is the nature of our rebellion. Thus, there is nothing that merits God's grace being given to us via adoption.
No Calvinist ever says the human heart doesn't fight against God. That is not what irresistible grace means. It means that those whom God chooses, by His Sovereign election, will not be able to resist God's call and choice. They will eventually be saved...against their own will. This is the way that all humans who come to faith act. If you are saved, it happened against your own rebellious will. God broke you and hounded you until you could no longer resist. Look at Paul as the shining example of God capturing and breaking down his resistance.
Why do you imagine yourself as better than you are? Why do you imagine that you are not a rebel at heart? Why do you imagine that you are capable of resisting the will of God? Are you stronger than God? Is your will greater than God's will?
Andy, you have a great dilemma on your hands.
See my post above...
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