Smart, let Dr Mounce and Archangel go at it!
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Jerry Walls wicked and profane question about God..part2
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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"steaver,
Yes...really Steaver...my example spoke to your ignoring my response about answers being age appropriate.
Then stop doing so...you do it again in this post as i will point out shortly.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
All men are left for hell, unless God in mercy elects a multitude to be saved.
The bible teaches this....Calvinists believe it.
When election is discussed the Multitude of those God in wisdom has already elected needs to mentioned...sorry you find that offensive and "off topic".
Then stop speculating...
When a non cal says this...error is about to be posted 98 out of 100 times.
...no...I did not think so
...
God has already elected a multitude...it is fixed, settled, and certain.
All that The Father has given to the Son will come...no speculation here steaver just fact.
who said anything about leaving it out? other than you.
A proper presentation includes the work of the Spirit in regeneration.That is the full truth right there.
why would you suggest I do not do this?
Yes...really Steaver...my example spoke to your ignoring my response about answers being age appropriate.
You feel things are off topic? That is because I am addressing the topic, but first have to peel away your unbiblical blame God for mans sinful condition game that you employ. When I answer you ...you protest and do not like it...well I suggest you focus Steaver.
Then stop doing so...you do it again in this post as i will point out shortly.
Is Calvinism clear?...or is the BIBLE clear on this?
God does not make you believe...He makes you willing to believe.....can you post the position without distortions? is this even possible with you?
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
All men are left for hell, unless God in mercy elects a multitude to be saved.
The bible teaches this....Calvinists believe it.
The topic of the OP. is how Jerry Walls,and the tradionalists he speaks for look to blame God for mans sin...They go on to suggest God is immoral if he does not save everyone they believe he should.....and now they try and advise God who he should save , as if God in perfect wisdom has not already enacted His eternally perfect plan and purpose In Christ.
When election is discussed the Multitude of those God in wisdom has already elected needs to mentioned...sorry you find that offensive and "off topic".
Not scoring points...it is not a game. I am refuting your error and the profane writing of the tradionalists. Others can do it better...but at least i am declaring which side of the issue has a biblical base...as opposed to the blame God group who offers carnal philosophical speculation...
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Then stop speculating...
When a non cal says this...error is about to be posted 98 out of 100 times.
You have any verse..to prove your "fact"?
...no...I did not think so...
SPECULATION...here it is again.....He ..MAY NOT????
God has already elected a multitude...it is fixed, settled, and certain.
All that The Father has given to the Son will come...no speculation here steaver just fact.
We do not know who is elected Steaver....so why would you go beyond scripture and speculate??? the apostles did not speculate they declared the truth...Calvinists believe their message.
who said anything about leaving it out? other than you.
A proper presentation includes the work of the Spirit in regeneration.That is the full truth right there.
why would you suggest I do not do this?
You guys should probably take this “non-whosoever will” stuff to somewhere like the SBC Connect 316 Celebration so while you are there you could explain to them how all the major Bible translators got it wrong but your expert Greek analyses corrects their ignorance. Let me know, I'd like to buy tickets! 
Πᾶν ὃ δίδωσίν μοι ὁ πατὴρ πρὸς ἐμὲ ἥξει, καὶ τὸν ἐρχόμενον πρὸς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἐκβάλω ἔξω,[John 6:37]
'Pas' Πᾶν means all. Now, who are the 'all' in this verse, @Benjamin? Those who are given to the 'Pater' πατὴρ , the Father. And 'all' that are given to the Father πατὴρ ,will come τὸν ἐρχόμενον to the Father πατὴρ, and He will in no way cast aside ἐκβάλω ἔξω .
'Pas' Πᾶν means all. Now, who are the 'all' in this verse, @Benjamin? Those who are given to the 'Pater' πατὴρ , the Father. And 'all' that are given to the Father πατὴρ ,will come τὸν ἐρχόμενον to the Father πατὴρ, and He will in no way cast aside ἐκβάλω ἔξω .
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You guys should probably take this “non-whosoever will” stuff to somewhere like the SBC Connect 316 Celebration so while you are there you could explain to them how all the major Bible translators got it wrong but your expert Greek analyses corrects their ignorance. Let me know, I'd like to buy tickets!
SBC Connect 316 Celebration? Oh, the group that sooo wants to distance themselves from Calvinists, they'll rub elbows with a heretic that advocates purgatory?
“Purgatory is hope.”
― Jerry L. Walls, Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory: Rethinking the Things That Matter Most
“One may hope that in the very moment of death, lost souls turn to God, and instead of passing through the gates of hell to hopeless eternal misery, they go instead to purgatory.”
― Jerry L. Walls, Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory: Rethinking the Things That Matter Most
SBC Connect 316 Celebration? Oh, the group that sooo wants to distance themselves from Calvinists, they'll rub elbows with a heretic Methodist(IIRC he is a Methodist) that advocates purgatory?
“Purgatory is hope.”
― Jerry L. Walls, Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory: Rethinking the Things That Matter Most
“One may hope that in the very moment of death, lost souls turn to God, and instead of passing through the gates of hell to hopeless eternal misery, they go instead to purgatory.”
― Jerry L. Walls, Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory: Rethinking the Things That Matter Most
To me, the Connect 316 movement has went too far in their attempt(s) to distance themselves from Calvinists and their Calvinism.
We disagree with each other. That's not a huge problem. There have been disagreements over this issue for centuries. But I am afraid C316 has went off the reservation in their zeal to distance themselves from those they disagree with. To go so far as to rub elbows with such a heretic as Dr. Walls and his advocacy of purgatory is mind-blowing to me. Who's next? Rob Bell?
We disagree with each other. That's not a huge problem. There have been disagreements over this issue for centuries. But I am afraid C316 has went off the reservation in their zeal to distance themselves from those they disagree with. To go so far as to rub elbows with such a heretic as Dr. Walls and his advocacy of purgatory is mind-blowing to me. Who's next? Rob Bell?
When considering heretical doctrines, especially that which attempts to put darkness into the light of the Gospel it's hard foe me to put a limit on the distance.
You should probably know that I realize someone can twist the meaning of the scripture through using Greek and as easily as they do using English, so when someone pulls out the Greek Card as if that makes them some type of an authority I take it for what it is worth [not much].
Therefore, when someone who doesn’t even really know Greek tries to use it to verify their interpretational conclusions the practice starts to become comical since it goes to prove the fallacy of this one-upmanship attempt while exposing the mindset of them who would think such a tactic would actually carry weight.
If they wan to disagree with us, that's fine. But to link up with a RCC-ish Methodist who holds to purgatory is a bit much, imo.
I did not pull out the Greek card for some type of authority. And yes, I am just starting to get my legs under me learning this language. But whether I type 'pas'[/], cut and paste Πᾶν, or type 'all', the context remains the same. 'All' in John 6:37 does not mean 'all whoever lived' but 'all who are given to Christ will be drawn'.
Again, I am just learning this. I am not trying to come across as some sort of expert on this. But the context in Greek is just as consistent as it is in English. All who are given to the Christ are all who are drawn. And none of them, when they come to Him, will He cast/drive away.
So you diligently teach your children everyone should love God for God commands He should be loved. You feel children can understand this, right? But you do not feel children can understand that God does not in turn love everyone, so you withhold this information from them.
So tell me then, at what age does your church teach your children/teenagers that God does not love everyone but only those He has chosen to before they were ever born?
And that many sitting in your very church, both young and old, may not even be chosen, they could be wasting their time sitting there in church learning how they should be loving God, a God whom just may not love you back?
You have any verse..to prove your "fact"?
There is none....tis why I brought it up. It is a Calvinism tenet not found in the Scripture. But now you seem to suggest a person can believe without being given a new heart by God? Now which comes first in your theology? The New Heart or Belief? If it is the New Heart then yes God makes the person believe, it's that simple. Of course this is un-biblical, but you already said as much.
Rockson
Active Member
And we can notice what it says....God was in Christ reconciling (what?) THE WORLD unto himself, not just the lucky ones or the especially blessed. I'm sorry but I'm thinking if it were as Calvinists put forth that God was just reconciling only the elect to himself it would have read that way...but it says...THE WORLD. And God has given his servants as Paul stated, "The ministry of reconciliation" 2 Cor 5:18 It's not even a matter as to whether God will save this one or that! Will is a thing of the past, for he's already done it. The good news is better than even many Christians have thought which is God has reconciled himself to you NOW you be reconciled to God. THE WORLD has the stamp of redemption on it and he wouldn't have so stamped it that way if he didn't mean it. It is the will of God for each member of humanity to receive the great salvation that God has provided. Will all do so? Apparently not but it does not negate the fact that it is his will.
Surely you know the Calvinist's dictionary is different than most people's.
From the Calvinist's Dictionary
World = The Elect
Everyone = The Elect
Whosoever = The Elect
Anyone = The Elect
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There is a problem with your analogy, imo. Those who are being reconciled are also not having their sins credited to their account. To reconcile means to make two adversaries friends. Now, if He is reconciling(making the world...all whoever lived as you are using the word ‘world’ to mean) everybody, then everybody will be saved.
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.[2 Corinthians 5:19]
καταλλάσσω, \{kat-al-las'-so} 1) to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value 1a) to reconcile (those who are at variance) 1b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one 1c) to receive one into favour
That is what reconciliation means. If He has reconciled, literally, everybody without exception, as you are using the word ‘world’, then everybody is saved.
False dichotomy nonsense! 2 Cor 5:19 is about the ministry of reconciliation meaning God the Father was in Christ reconciling the world, which (in whole) was before at enmity with God, to himself. It was about taking away that enmity which could not otherwise be removed from the world (in whole) except in the blood of Christ. To try to twist and limit the meaning to be the “world of the elect” and add the false dilemma that it would otherwise have to mean that everyone got saved is otter systematic force-to- fit nonsense and distorts the very meaning of this MINISTRY of Christ which is spoken of.
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
You're making several false assumptions: 1.) You assume SovereignGrace, as well as all Calvinists, change "world" to "elect." That simply is not true. 2.)You're begging the question as to the meaning of "world." You assume, without proof, that it means "everyone without exception" or "the whole of humanity." And, as such, you're twisting the meaning of the text.
The Archangel
Nothing in that scripture would lead one to believe the false dilemma that the ministry spoken of in relationship to this ministry coming into the world would have to imply that everyone residing in the world to which the ministry applied (applied to the world, not individuals) would have to be saved because He (God) came into the world bringing this ministry of the payment of blood for reconciliation. Nothing leads one to this pure either-or force-to-fit nonsense except the desperate attempt to fulfill one's systematic theology rather than to fulfill the message of the ministry which brought into the world genuine hope for every man.
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