Jesus and the Rapture

[revmwc]

sorry it's long

1 Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Most would say yes there is a future return but your question how do we see a pre-mil from this verse alone, you cannot. The teaching of the pre-millennial must be tied to other scripture as the New Testament account of Christ was tied to the prophets.
First look at Revelation 4: 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Notice John hears a voice that sounds like the voice of a trumpet. Tie that to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 we see God saying come up hither. For John it would be the things that would occur in yet a future time, future from John’s writing in the A.D. 90’s. Notice too verse 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. of Revelation 4.
1. The 24 elders are clothed in white raiment, notice these verses revelation 4: 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
2. Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
3. Revelation 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
4. Revelation 19:8
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
5. Revelation 19: 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Notice the raiment of the elders in Heaven, then the church age believers who overcome and the work we do is to be for reward, then the bride and finally the Army that follows the Bridegroom Christ in His coming to do battle.
Couple their crowns with 1 Corinthians 3: 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Notice this is not the Great White Throne seen at the end of Revelation, for there the unbelievers are judge and cast into the Lake of Fire. This shows a rewarding of believers which we see the 24 elders crowned meaning that prior to the future events of Revelation 5 and following the church is in heaven and has been rewarded.
Then Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks Daniel states 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
According to verse 25, 69 weeks of 7 years would occur, and after 62 weeks the messiah would be cut off 7 years the street would be rebuilt then 62 weeks after that and Messiah would be cut off. Then after Messiah is cut off the city would yet be destroyed (70 A.D.)
Then the Messiah would: 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
For 1 week or 7 years and this is the Tribulation as seen in Revelation 5 and following. After the 7 years Messiah will come conquering and set up His 1000 year reign in Jerusalem in fulfillment of other prophecies. It must all be tied together. Many tie the rapture to the middle of the tribulation other to the end, while the Preterist see it as having occurred and all prophecy after 70 A.D. is metaphorical.

 

[webdog]

Is "proof texting" the word you want?

"Proof texting is the method by which a person appeals to a biblical text to prove or justify a theological position without regard for the context of the passage they are citing." (Theopedia)

"Prooftexting (sometimes "proof-texting" or "proof texting") is the practice of using isolated quotations from a document to establish a proposition. Using discrete quotations is generally seen as decontextualised." (Wikipedia)

Thank you for the further clarification. That is the exact word I wanted given your statement of... "I agree with you. It does militate against the teaching of a rapture."

I gave you a broad, multi-faceted comparison between two extended passages. How is that proof texting? Or how did I isolate verses?

Why don't you go back up a little bit and review your theopedia source.

If I didn't go into further detail it is because I still have this busy day of teaching. When I come back today I hope to address this topic.

....

But here is an opportunity for you to help me get past my proof-texting, Webdog. Tell me what part of Matthew 24 has been fulfilled in the 1st century and what part is still future. That should get us to the core of the issue.

We're discussing Matthew 24 now? I could have sworn the OP was in regards to John

And, yes. I agree that it was spoken to the twelve. I am not sure how you think that buttresses your side rather than mine. Perhaps you can elaborate on that too.

If something is being prayed for on behalf of the 12, how does that "...militate against the teaching of a rapture."?

 

[asterisktom]

We're discussing Matthew 24 now? I could have sworn the OP was in regards to John

If something is being prayed for on behalf of the 12, how does that "...militate against the teaching of a rapture."?

Yes, the OP was concerning 1 Thess and John. When asked to expand on my views I suggested looking at Matthew 24. This was all part of my clarifying my view that the Rapture (as taught today) is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

Since this admittedly takes us away from the OP I will just start another thread elsewhere. I am not really interested in the question of the OP, not if other passages cannot be brought in. In my mind, the words of Christ to His disciples concerning the [Jewish] end time should all be considered- whether in John 17 or Matthew 24 or Luke 17 and 21. These were all spoken to the same persons at the same time on the same subject (though there was some overlap).

 

[revmwc]

mat 24

Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Let’s see if how this breaks down. First a prophet must make a short term prophecy which comes true in a short period of time. Jesus prophesied that the temple would be destroyed and not one stone left upon another. This happened just as He said in 70 A.D. Short term prophecy fulfilled proof that He was a true prophet.
Next we see the question from His disciples. The Prophecy of the temples destruction is not connected with this except for leading to the question of when shall the end time come and what signs do we look for.


3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.


Now for the Church we were to see that no one deceived us verse 4. Many false Christ shall come in Christ name or say they are the Christ, David Koresh comes to mind as well as Jim Jones v5. We shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, that is still occurring today, nation against nation, along with pestilences, famines and earthquakes still all these occur today.

Then verse

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then the time changes, this is the point of the rapture right before the Tribulation begins.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now we see the end of the Tribulation and the Second coming of Christ. Coming to defeat Satan and His armies.


31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation that sees Christ return at 2nd Advent will not pass away until all these things be fulfilled, what things the things just listed, the rapture, the tribulation and the return of Christ. That generation may be the generation in which we are living.



35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

One taken and the other left sees fulfillment in Revelation 19: 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The unbeliever taken and slain not to enter the Kingdom age.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
We are to be watching for His return.

 

[asterisktom]

Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Let’s see if how this breaks down. First a prophet must make a short term prophecy which comes true in a short period of time. Jesus prophesied that the temple would be destroyed and not one stone left upon another. This happened just as He said in 70 A.D. Short term prophecy fulfilled proof that He was a true prophet.
Next we see the question from His disciples. The Prophecy of the temples destruction is not connected with this except for leading to the question of when shall the end time come and what signs do we look for.

Your "break down" breaks down, RevMWC. You are thinking that the disciples were asking a three-part question. They weren't. It may seem that way at first glance here in Matt. 24 but if you go to the parallel Synoptic passages you will see that they were only asking one main question: When will these things be - all these things?

Did you ever wonder why Matt. 24 is referred to much more often in eschatology discussions than Mark 13 or Luke 21? It is at least partly because Matt. seems to lend itself to this three part division of the disciple's question. But you need to only compare it with the other two passages to see that there really is no threefold division. It is one basic question:

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? - Mark 13:4

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? - Luke 21:7

"These things" are one unit. Neither does it help the futurist cause to assert that Jesus answered more than they asked. This is true, of course. Jesus almost always answered more than the questions that were brought to him.

Yet He did not treat the question as three questions.

A careful comparison of Matt. 24 with these other passages show that the assumed futurist/dispensationalist breakdown of AD70/ still future events do not match up. Mark and Luke get them all out of order (sic) - especially Luke.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

If, as you imply, that the pre-Trib Rapture of the Church is not true, then I guess I am bound for hell even though I placed my trust in Christ.

How can I say this? Because of what the Word of God says..

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Since Revelation 22:15 says that whosoever loves and makes a lie will be found outside the city, I guess I will not make it in ... that is, if pre-Trib is a lie.

I preach a pre-Trib Rapture of the Church and absolutely love the thought of leaving this Earth prior to the pouring out of God's wrath upon the Earth.

 

[webdog]

Luke 21:7 is a direct question pertaining to the temple. Verse 20 implies additional prophecy after their question was answered (Then Jesus said to them....)

 

[asterisktom]

Luke 21:7 is a direct question pertaining to the temple. Verse 20 implies additional prophecy after their question was answered (Then Jesus said to them....)

We search Scripture and see what we are looking for.

 

[asterisktom]

If, as you imply, that the pre-Trib Rapture of the Church is not true, then I guess I am bound for hell even though I placed my trust in Christ.

How can I say this? Because of what the Word of God says..

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Since Revelation 22:15 says that whosoever loves and makes a lie will be found outside the city, I guess I will not make it in ... that is, if pre-Trib is a lie.

I preach a pre-Trib Rapture of the Church and absolutely love the thought of leaving this Earth prior to the pouring out of God's wrath upon the Earth.

Wow. I guess that is the hill you are ready to die on.

But it isn't Calvary. Are you perhaps over-reacting?

 

[Tom Butler]

If, as you imply, that the pre-Trib Rapture of the Church is not true, then I guess I am bound for hell even though I placed my trust in Christ.

How can I say this? Because of what the Word of God says..

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Since Revelation 22:15 says that whosoever loves and makes a lie will be found outside the city, I guess I will not make it in ... that is, if pre-Trib is a lie.

I preach a pre-Trib Rapture of the Church and absolutely love the thought of leaving this Earth prior to the pouring out of God's wrath upon the Earth.

Oh, I think all of us would love the thought of missing the tribulation. All of us really want it to be true, even if we believe the scriptures don't teach it.

For the first 35 years of my life, the only view of the end-times I was ever taught was Pre-Trib. The one Sunday night, my new young pastor preached a different view. At the end of the service, several of us headed for him.

He held up his hand. "Guys, we're not going to debate this tonight. If we're going to do this, you need to have your scriptures ready. So, here's your assignment: Find for me one scripture verse or passage that is not subject to any other interpretation that teaches your view. It must be unequivocally Pre-Trib. Bring your scripture or scriptures and then we'll talk."

Shoot, I thought, this is going to be like shooting fish in a barrel.

It wasn't.

I couldn't find a scripture that fit his criteria.

I've read all the scripture passages that have been quoted in this thread so far. So far, no cigar.

 

[Tom Butler]

If somebody asks me what I am, I say I am a Historic Pre-millenialist--a Post-tribber. But I emphasize that that's where I am today. Obviously, I wasn't there originally, and I may not be there tomorrow.

One's eschatology is not a test of fellowship for me.

 

[webdog]

We search Scripture and see what we are looking for.

like your take on the OP or how you twist 3 different accounts to fit into your mold?

 

[webdog]

If somebody asks me what I am, I say I am a Historic Pre-millenialist--a Post-tribber. But I emphasize that that's where I am today. Obviously, I wasn't there originally, and I may not be there tomorrow.

One's eschatology is not a test of fellowship for me.

If the rapture is tomorrow you definitely won't be there (or here for that matter) tomorrow

 

[asterisktom]

like your take on the OP or how you twist 3 different accounts to fit into your mold?

I am aware that I am prone to do that, and try to guard against it. Are you aware of doing the same?

When people say, as you did, Webdog, that "Scripture implies" something that is already a red flag.

That is what prompted - and still prompts - my comment.

 

[webdog]

Oh, I think all of us would love the thought of missing the tribulation. All of us really want it to be true, even if we believe the scriptures don't teach it.

For the first 35 years of my life, the only view of the end-times I was ever taught was Pre-Trib. The one Sunday night, my new young pastor preached a different view. At the end of the service, several of us headed for him.

He held up his hand. "Guys, we're not going to debate this tonight. If we're going to do this, you need to have your scriptures ready. So, here's your assignment: Find for me one scripture verse or passage that is not subject to any other interpretation that teaches your view. It must be unequivocally Pre-Trib. Bring your scripture or scriptures and then we'll talk."

Shoot, I thought, this is going to be like shooting fish in a barrel.

It wasn't.

I couldn't find a scripture that fit his criteria.

I've read all the scripture passages that have been quoted in this thread so far. So far, no cigar.

In fairness, wouldn't your pastor's question also apply to the mid trib and post trib view?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

In fairness, wouldn't your pastor's question also apply to the mid trib and post trib view?

I believe it would.

 

[Tom Butler]

If the rapture is tomorrow you definitely won't be there (or here for that matter) tomorrow

Ain't that the truth. My late brother-in-law, one of the greatest lay Bible students I ever knew, was a flint-faced pre-tribber. He used to tease me, "when the rapture comes, I'm grabbing your hand and you're going."

 

[revmwc]

Your "break down" breaks down, RevMWC. You are thinking that the disciples were asking a three-part question. They weren't. It may seem that way at first glance here in Matt. 24 but if you go to the parallel Synoptic passages you will see that they were only asking one main question: When will these things be - all these things?

Did you ever wonder why Matt. 24 is referred to much more often in eschatology discussions than Mark 13 or Luke 21? It is at least partly because Matt. seems to lend itself to this three part division of the disciple's question. But you need to only compare it with the other two passages to see that there really is no threefold division. It is one basic question:

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? - Mark 13:4

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? - Luke 21:7

"These things" are one unit. Neither does it help the futurist cause to assert that Jesus answered more than they asked. This is true, of course. Jesus almost always answered more than the questions that were brought to him.

Yet He did not treat the question as three questions.

A careful comparison of Matt. 24 with these other passages show that the assumed futurist/dispensationalist breakdown of AD70/ still future events do not match up. Mark and Luke get them all out of order (sic) - especially Luke.

Jesus gave a three part answer to show what would occur. Doesn't mean you have accept it I do and gave my view.

 

[Tom Butler]

Here's one passage that is clearly post-tribulational:

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

Now, let's find a clearly pre-tribulational passage.

 

[revmwc]

Oh, I think all of us would love the thought of missing the tribulation. All of us really want it to be true, even if we believe the scriptures don't teach it.

For the first 35 years of my life, the only view of the end-times I was ever taught was Pre-Trib. The one Sunday night, my new young pastor preached a different view. At the end of the service, several of us headed for him.

He held up his hand. "Guys, we're not going to debate this tonight. If we're going to do this, you need to have your scriptures ready. So, here's your assignment: Find for me one scripture verse or passage that is not subject to any other interpretation that teaches your view. It must be unequivocally Pre-Trib. Bring your scripture or scriptures and then we'll talk."

Shoot, I thought, this is going to be like shooting fish in a barrel.

It wasn't.

I couldn't find a scripture that fit his criteria.

I've read all the scripture passages that have been quoted in this thread so far. So far, no cigar.

2 Timothy 2:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Sounds like we are in those days seems many have turned from truth of scripture that Christ will return and scripture shows Christ promised we wouldn't go through the hour of tempatation.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Seems the church can claim that promise too bad so many have turned to fables like preterism.