Jesus as Lord

To see the kingdom and to enter into the kingdom mean the same thing. SALVATION requires obedence. There is n such thing as a carnal christian. There are obedient christians and there are the lost, damned to Hell.

There is nothing said here about rewards. Personally, I think the whole question about rewards is way overblown and is used to try to missinterpret the very description of the (one) judgement found in MA 25 and Rev 20. </font>[/QUOTE]What you are describing is a salvation by works; by obedience.

If seeing the Kingdom and entering the Kingdom are the same thing, then I wonder why the Holy Spirit used different words and different requirements?

 

100% wrong HoG. Being born again is PASSIVE. It is the work of GOD, not the work of man doing XYZ. God redeems you. Not because of XYZ, but because of His grace alone.

Remember, you are dead, unable to believe, seek, call on Christ, etc etc. Dead.

Give you a good example. Lazarus in the tomb 4 days in Bethany. Dead. How did he "hear" Christ and "respond" by hopping out of the tomb? He was DEAD!

Answer: He had to have a 100% divine intervention to give him LIFE so that he COULD respond to the call of Christ.

And so with us. Until the Spirit gives us a new life (we are passive recipients) we cannot do anything. THEN, completing what humans think of as "salvation", we repent, believe and call on Jesus and are saved. </font>[/QUOTE]"Dead (separated from God) in sin" does not mean...

It means just what it says...dead in sin. All of the verses telling us to seek, believe, call on Christ, etc. etc. would be only half true, making the Bible only written to those who are believers...and a lie to those who read it who will not be believers.

 

To see the kingdom and to enter into the kingdom mean the same thing. SALVATION requires obedence. There is n such thing as a carnal christian. There are obedient christians and there are the lost, damned to Hell.

There is nothing said here about rewards. Personally, I think the whole question about rewards is way overblown and is used to try to missinterpret the very description of the (one) judgement found in MA 25 and Rev 20. </font>[/QUOTE]What you are describing is a salvation by works; by obedience.

If seeing the Kingdom and entering the Kingdom are the same thing, then I wonder why the Holy Spirit used different words and different requirements? </font>[/QUOTE]So, you're saying that Jesus was lying when he told Nicodemus that he must be born again?

 

He told Nicodemus that he must be born from above (he did not say "born again") to see the Kingdom. Being born from above is salvation and it requires nothing on your part, other than accepting a free gift. (Of course, it does require that you realize the need for it, but no matter what, it does not require works.)

However, to enter the Kingdom (to participate; to rule and to reign), you are required to do something.

For example, when you were born, your parents did all the work. You did nothing. They fed you milk, etc. But, to mature, to grow up, to go onto perfection, required you to do something, didn't it?

 

And in order to be saved you must do something:

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:

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These are but a few of the many examples in the Bible in which we are told that salvation is a process, a process of walking with Christ, of enduring until the end, of fighting the good fight. Both of the primary descriptions of the Judgement (MA 25 and REV 20) talk about being judged by what we've done in His name. How do you explain this?

 

Every single example you have posted has to do with obedience and/or the Kingdom, not common salvation. These are things that you do after you are saved. It's fruitbearing, entering in at the narrow gate, enduring... None of this can be done until after you are saved.

A lost person cannot be obedient.

 

I agree with you on that. Now, how do you explain the descriptions of the judgement based on obedience (MA 25 and Rev 20)?

 

Matthew 25 relates to saved people; Revelation 20 (Great White Throne) are the lost. Only the saved (and all the saved) will appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ; only the unsaved will appear at the Great White Throne.

 

Where are these defined in the Bible? I think a lot of people talk about multiple judgments to try to make the Bible fit ther reconceived notions.

But let's look at MA 25.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If only the saved are present, who is Chist damnng to Hell here?

 

BUMP