Jesus' Baptism

[Benjamin]

If you apply the "increase" to the giving of the Holy Spirit, than you would logically have to apply the "DEcrease" on John's side to mean that John got less and less of the Holy Spirit.

I think your right on that, bapmom.

How about "for God giveth not the Spirit by measure onto Him" Do you think Jesus was anointed in the fullness of the Spirit “without measure” when the heavens were opened to Him at the beginning of His ministry?

When the heavens opened and God said, “Thou art my beloved Son” was He saying not only that Jesus was virgin-born, but also that he was his Son in the sense of being the second Person of the Trinity, the divine Son heir of all things including judgment, on this day?

(Psa 2:7) I will declare the decree : the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee .

(Psa 2:8) Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

(Psa 2:9) Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

When reading Acts 10, one will realize that the Holy Spirit is imparted at time of Salvation.

Peter preached the Word of God to a crowd. Many received the Word and apparently believed on Jesus whom Peter was teaching.

Peter said to the crowd...

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

It is quite evident water Baptism does not impart the Holy Spirit, but follows the impartation of the Holy Spirit as an act of obedience and outward profession of one's faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[bapmom]

I believe the mention of the Holy Spirit at the time of His baptism was to indicate the presence of all Three Persons of the Godhead being present in visual and/or audible form, as a sign that God was beginning His ministry of reconciliation with mankind at that moment......

God the Father did not withold any portion of the Holy Spirit from the Son.....the Son had full power from on High to do whatever He needed to do while on earth. So yes, this is what I would think of as "without measure".

 

[Rev. Lowery]

Jesus was the only begotten Son of God.....
This means Jesus was from God meaning, of God by God, for Gods purpose.......I hope this clears, I dont see why we didnt go to the obvious scripture first.?.?.?.?

John 3:16-18

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[R. Charles Blair]

The key to answering the original question (which has been somewhat sidetracked along the way, it seems) is in the word "fulfill." It is one thing to fill something full; it is quite another thing to "fulfill" it, to bring it to the purpose for which it was prepared and filled. The "all righteousness" that Jesus had was fulfilled - brought to fruition, accomplished its purpose - in obedience. "Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered."

Having "fufilled" my purpose in writing, I'll sign off. Best - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[Benjamin]

[QUOTE ]…to bring it to the purpose for which it was prepared and filled. The "all righteousness" that Jesus had was fulfilled - brought to fruition, accomplished its purpose - in obedience. "Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered." [/QUOTE]

Thanks Charles,

That’s kind of what I’m getting at, which reminds me to point out that Jesus “learned”.

I get the being filled part, but in fulfillment of righteousness to be obedient to the law didn’t Jesus have to humble Himself and become human in nature in order to put on the sins of man in the world? Man isn’t born with the HS without measure; the HS is a gift to man at rebirth.

I really don’t have a problem with this baptism being interpreted as an example of obedience and a fulfillment of Jesus’ servitude toward righteousness only and I’m not claiming that the water has power. Anyway, it isn’t until Jesus walks out of the water that the heavens opened up and the Spirit descended upon Him.

Herein lies the tougher question: “He saw the heavens opened”, implying they weren’t open to Him before that; and “the Spirit like a dove descending upon him”, implying the Spirit wasn’t already upon Him, at least currently in His human nature, although eternally His, maybe He did without to achieve righteousness in His human form up to this point?

Looking at the beginning of His ministry I’m wondering if He went through some type of change at this point, like us being born again in the Spirit, although we can't drink of His cup. Another thing I’m looking at is if He was receiving encouragement or being strengthened from above for the challenges of a difficult task that He was about to meet.

(Luk 12:50) But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

I wonder if Jesus was getting encouragement or support from above because of several passages that seem to imply such.

(Isa 42:1) Behold my servant, whom I uphold ; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

(Isa 42:2) He shall not cry , nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

And was He getting support when He spoke of His death with Moses and Elijah? Also at that time God’s voice from heaven saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”

Look at the following verses of Him in regards of encouragement and obedience.

(Mat 26:38) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

(Mat 26:39) And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

 

[Hope of Glory]

A few statements on the OP:

It is common today to teach baptism in association with salvation. Why did Jesus get baptized? Did he need to be saved?

Baptism is a sign of dying to self.

 

[SirColes]

Herein lies the tougher question: “He saw the heavens opened”, implying they weren’t open to Him before that; and “the Spirit like a dove descending upon him”, implying the Spirit wasn’t already upon Him, at least currently in His human nature, although eternally His, maybe He did without to achieve righteousness in His human form up to this point?

It can be a little tough with the Bible's libral use of pronouns, but I am pretty sure the "He" that saw the heavens opened is John. (Not that Jesus did not see it, but the passage is sepcifically referring to John). This can be seen more easily in John's rendition of this scene:

John 1:32-34
(32) And John bore witness: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him.
(33) I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'
(34) And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God."

The point is that John, as proof for him from God that Jesus is the one for whom John was waiting, is the one who saw the heavens opened and the dove descend. If that is true, then that eliminates the question about Jesus seeing the heavens open for the first time at his baptism. It appears as though these things happened as proof that Jesus is the Son of God.

As for the other examples where it looks as though Jesus is stregnthened by God the Father and/or the Holy Spirit, I would have to agree that it looks as though that is what is hapenning. I just cannot say why Jesus needed that.

Other than this rather personal - if not theological - reason. Seeing Jesus face tough times and recognize that they were actually tough for him gives me encouragement in my own tough times. It also gives me an example to follow in my tough times (Turn to God!). The only Bible I have on this comes from Hebrews when the writer is talking about the priesthood of Jesus. Specifically, Hebrews 2:10-18 looks to apply. Verse 18 is as follows:

Hebrews 2:18
(18) For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

 

[Benjamin]

It can be a little tough with the Bible's libral use of pronouns, but I am pretty sure the "He" that saw the heavens opened is John. (Not that Jesus did not see it, but the passage is sepcifically referring to John). This can be seen more easily in John's rendition of this scene:

Welcome and thanks for the input; good point about the passage in John referring to John himself seeing it; although it does look like the subject in the Matthew passage is entirely in regards to Jesus I see when reading the next verse it does say “This is my beloved Son” and that would be declaring the truth and pleasure to the witnesses.

(Mat 3:16) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
(Mat 3:17) And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The point is that John, as proof for him from God that Jesus is the one for whom John was waiting, is the one who saw the heavens opened and the dove descend. If that is true, then that eliminates the question about Jesus seeing the heavens open for the first time at his baptism. It appears as though these things happened as proof that Jesus is the Son of God.

I do think it appears to be so, except eliminating the question because the Spirit lighted upon Jesus, not John, and if the Spirit was to light on Him (Jesus) and He already had it that would make two spirits. Also the next verse says “Then” was Jesus lead of the spirit into the wilderness,…” this kind of seems that now He was ready having received the Spirit and encouragement from the Father.
(Mat 4:1) Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

As for the other examples where it looks as though Jesus is stregnthened by God the Father and/or the Holy Spirit, I would have to agree that it looks as though that is what is hapenning. I just cannot say why Jesus needed that.

This is what prompted me to start this tread; pondering if Jesus lived before this minus the 3rd Person for His obedience to be righteously fulfilled up to this point of being baptized along with the Father encouraging Him (upholding Him) the rest of the way right up to the time of Jesus saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” Which to digress here a bit I’ve always thought that God didn’t turn His back on Jesus but that Jesus was calling our attention to the teachings in Psalms 22 and look to this verse as proof that God heard Him.

(Psa 22:24) For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

Other than this rather personal - if not theological - reason. Seeing Jesus face tough times and recognize that they were actually tough for him gives me encouragement in my own tough times. It also gives me an example to follow in my tough times (Turn to God!). The only Bible I have on this comes from Hebrews when the writer is talking about the priesthood of Jesus. Specifically, Hebrews 2:10-18 looks to apply. Verse 18 is as follows: quote:
________________________________________
Hebrews 2:18
(18) For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
________________________________________

Great thought! Amen

 

[Calvibaptist]

Please ignore all statements by SFIC about sonship. Just because the word "son" is used in different places, it does not mean that it is used in the exact same way. We had this problem with other words on a different thread. You have to look at context for word meaning, not just do a search in Quickverse and paste verses that have the same word.

This view that he is suggesting is quite Mormonish. They take the same references out of context and say that Jesus is a son just like those others are sons. In fact, we are all sons of God, but in a completely different way than Jesus is THE Son of God. That term, when applied to Jesus, is a reference to His deity. In the same way, Jesus uses the phrase "Son of Man" to refer to His humanity. We are not God, so "sons of God" when applied to us means something categorically different.

As God, Jesus was completely righteous before His baptism. "Fulfill all righteousness" just means that this was part of His obedience to the Father's will. If He did not obey the Father, He would have fallen short of the glory of God and not fulfilled all righteousness.

 

[Hope of Glory]

we are all sons of God

Scripture does not say that. Scripture says we are all children. Son-ship is a position that is not automatically conferred or inferred.

 

[DeeJay]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> we are all sons of God

Scripture does not say that. Scripture says we are all children. Son-ship is a position that is not automatically conferred or inferred. </font>[/QUOTE]I am not sure what post you got this from but, children would be sons and daughters right. Also we all are not children of God automatily, believers become children (sons and daughters) of God.

I believe son and children are used to describe inheretance. God seems to use family relationships thruout the Bible to describe things, Father, bride, Bridegroom.

Mormons believe we are automaticly children of god because they take that literaly as in procreated. As in god and his wife had spirit babys and gave them bodies.

 

[Calvibaptist]

He got the quote from my post. What I should have said, just to make it correct, is that all believers are sons of God.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Romans 9:25-26 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,

A lot of modern translations use the word "children" to include women. But women are included in the concept of sons. The word is actually huioi, which is literally translated "sons."

 

[Calvibaptist]

Now, this does not mean that we are just like Christ. There is a definite difference between "sons of God" and "the Son," or "only begotten Son."

Hebrews 1:5-6 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."

We are called "sons" because we receive the inheritance of Christ and have a relationship to the Father. But the title of "Son" given to Jesus refers to His deity, something we don't and never will have.

 

[R. Charles Blair]

I realize that this topic has been "quiet" for quite a while, but I'm just able this evening to pick back up on some almost-forgotten posts. The discussion in the last few is quite helpful. The "all-righteousness" of God was already in Jesus and was being out-worked in obedience, in my understanding. If I read Acts 5:32 correctly, there are "gifts of the Holy Spirit" (not the Spirit Himself) which come only in obedience. Or if you wish to phrase it a bit differently, but in keeping with a term Paul does use, we "obey the gospel" when we believe it, and in that obedient faith we do manifest the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. I don't see these as contrary one to the other, but supplementary. Having said all I have to say, I'll be quiet again! Best - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[standingfirminChrist]

wrong room, sorry