Just because he created the world does not mean he created sin.
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Jesus Christ - God Incarnate - Lamb of God ... ALWAYS the plan, or just a patch after the fall?
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
That's pretty close to the way I see it. God PROVOKED Satan to jealousy by inserting Adam into Eden knowing full well what would happen.
God created, He knew the fall would happen, but He planned for that from the beginning because Jesus and our glorification was always His plan.
This is what He predestined: Jesus the savior of all who are in Him.
This says nothing about whether He predestined people to be “In Him and saved” or “not In Him and not saved.” That is a different question.
Ascetic X
Active Member
It was never God’s will that Adam sin. If it was God’s will that Adam sin, then sin would be conforming to God’s will, and would thus not be punished.
God knowing something will happen, and preparing a remedy for it, does not mean God wanted it to happen. Such distortion indicates a gross misunderstanding of God’s holy character.
Saying God willed Adam to sin is blasphemy.
Psalm 5:4-6 (ESV)
For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.
James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
Imagine that you are a parent and, as a parent, you are somehow granted a “wish”:
Option A:
You can have a child that always obeys, but believes that you only love them because they are obedient.
Option B:
You can have a child that stubbornly rebels, but knows that you love them in spite of their disobedience.
As a parent, which do you wish for?
[What you see as a “problem”, I see as an “opportunity”.]
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
When you say He who specifically are you referring to from the text ?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Yes it was.
Ascetic X
Active Member
Thank you for publicly declaring the blasphemy of your position: it was God’s will for Adam to sin.
If, as you declare, God wanted Adam to sin, then God endorses disobedience against His own commandments, and He cannot justly punish anyone, including Lucifer, for sinning.
I now understand clearly your spiritual allegiances and orientation.
Sorry, not following your analogy, can you explain more how this relates to sovereignty? Im not quite following to see how your options connect. Right now im thinking that when I chose to have kids I knew that they could rebel if they chose. Are you asking that when I have a child that I can have a one forced to love me or one who is rebellious but knows I love them?
Ascetic X
Active Member
Option C: You have a child who sometimes obeys, and sometimes rebels, but knows you want them to obey, and knows that you love them whether they obey or rebel, but also knows that rebelling breaks your heart.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Thank you for declaring your unbelief
37818
Well-Known Member
Colossians 1:12-18, Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You didn’t even try. You have it within YOUR POWER to have either the child of natural disposition Option A or Option B (there is no “forced” anything).
Which would YOU choose and why?
(answer the question that I asked before you request more information from me).
BF, you're in a dangerous place believing it's God will for man to sin.
Everyone of us sins but is it God's will for us to do so? Of course not.
The same in the Garden, it was not God's will for them to sin, but God knew free will would go in that direction.
But in order for man to freely choose Christ of his own will God allowed man to fall and at the same time gave man a way out of the consequences.
I would chose not to have children if those were the only 2 outcomes if you were to have children.
Your scenario presents having child A is forced obedience and child B is forced rebellion: these are the required outcomes.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
That was not an option, so you have avoided the question and missed the point. Feel free to answer the question that was asked if you really want to discuss the point.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
OK.
Option A is God creating mankind that can not or will not sin, which results in Adam and Eve and their descendants living in Eden forever as obedient creatures that know God loves them because they always obey (just like the angels that did not rebel or the stars in the sky that obey the purpose for which God created them).
Option B is God creating mankind that can and will sin, which results in a fallen people deserving death but receiving a savior and learning that God loves us in spite of our sin and loves us more than as mere ”obedient creation” … God chose to adopt us as beloved children at unimaginable personal cost to Himself.
Your alternative choice is “God should not have created mankind”. (Which is an option, but one that God rejected).
OK, now I understand more of your analogy. I think there is an option C which is more modified that your 2 options. I will explain later when Im back from a hike with my kids!
Ascetic X
Active Member
Who appointed you to decide what the options are?
Your options A and B are unrealistic and irrelevant to life as it is experienced. No one has a child who always obeys or who always rebels. I choose option C.
Option A:
You can have a child that always obeys, but believes that you only love them because they are obedient.
Option B:
You can have a child that stubbornly rebels, but knows that you love them in spite of their disobedience.
Option C:
You have a child who sometimes obeys, and sometimes rebels, but knows you want them to obey, and knows that you love them whether they obey or rebel, but also knows that rebelling breaks your heart.