Jesus Christ is NOT God's criterion for election?!

[Particular]

No, to begin with I am not under the delusion that there is a “general call” and an actual “effective call” nor do I need to attempt to divide the call into duel definitions to justify a systematic “doctrine of grace” that is not transparent when presenting the Good News that they in fact believe it is Bad News for most according to their views of predetermination.



“If you take part of the truth, and try to make that part of the truth, all of the truth, then that part of the truth becomes an untruth.” ~ Adrian Rogers



I fully understand the Calvinist’s positions of Total Inability to respond to what they constantly debate is a less than genuine call for most. I said nothing of you/them telling a person, “ that they will never have the capacity to believe.”, I said that you/they are not transparent in telling, “that they may/most likely never be able to have the capacity to believe.”



So what, this does not justify your/their half-truths…



I did not ever say a servant knows any such thing; you merely try to create a strawman fallacy using this question-begging fallacy as your conclusion.



I spoke of Calvinists/Determinists not being transparent and being non-conclusive in their “Doctrines of Pre-selected Grace” and I’m not sure what your question-begging that you have the correct of view God’s sovereignty to be Deterministic Sovereignty over robots rather than Divine Providential Sovereignty over volition humans has to do with this.



Odd, you would speak of “strawmen" and then come with this doozer. I tell people who are seeking faith in the truth of God’s Words about His promise:

(Mat 7:7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:




Wrong! Such a statement tells the person they have genuine hope in a loving God who has promised to reveal the truth to them if from their heart they will ask, seek and knock at His door. That here is Good News …and I have no Bad News to hide when I tell it!



God, in that teaching, may not live up to your Systematic view of Determinism Sovereignty but He is maintained in my view as being in full control of the creatures He divinely designed to have sense, reason and intellect (human volition) to which He will in truth judge according to their responses to the GENUINE calls which He Providentially manages through Jesus Christ as a Mediator between Him and them for that reason.

Shame on you for calling God a “genie” for judging man's response in truth and/or for hearing their cries for knowledge of His loving truths!

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


(Psa 145:17) The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

(Psa 145:18) The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

(Psa 145:19) He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.



(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we can do nothing.

The use of "you" is referring to the recipient's of the letter. Are the recipient's pagans in need of God's grace or has God already chosen them to receive his gift.
Benjamin if I do not give you a gift can you choose to receive it anyway?

John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Give God his props. By his will we are given the right to become children of God.
Scripture is clear. God chooses. You receive.

 

[MB]

It's interesting that Luke only wrote the word "elect" only one time. Being a Gentile He must not have believed in Gentiles being elect. When he mentions the word elect it was something an unjust judge said.
Luk 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

I find it interesting that Luke said no more about the elect or election through out his whole book. Luke being a Gentile must not have thought he was elect if it's so important. He never acknowledged it. So much for the New Testament Gentiles believing in election as do the Calvinist Gentiles do.
MB

 

[Particular]

It's interesting that Luke only wrote the word "elect" only one time. Being a Gentile He must not have believed in Gentiles being elect. When he mentions the word elect it was something an unjust judge said.
Luk 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

I find it interesting that Luke said no more about the elect or election through out his whole book. Luke being a Gentile must not have thought he was elect if it's so important. He never acknowledged it. So much for the New Testament Gentiles believing in election as do the Calvinist Gentiles do.
MB

Luke wrote this:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[Dave G]

Interesting. I often refer to this verse when speaking to seekers because it also played a major role in convincing me of the truths in God's Words and His promises to all people.

Benjamin,
That verse in Matthew 7:7 is not speaking to "seekers".

He's speaking to the children of God, which He begins at in Matthew 5:3.
Continuing down through chapter 5, we see this:
"Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." ( Matthew 5:9 ).

" Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." ( Matthew 5:11 )
Who are these He is speaking to and about?
Christ's sheep.

He then continues the entire "Sermon on the Mount" speaking to and about God's children, as developed in Matthew 5:3-12.

" Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." ( Matthew 7:7 ) <------ This passage is not for unbelievers.

When I present that verse I tell people, "that is a promise you can put in the bank" and then I tell them the next verse ...but if truth be known according to the Calvinists they should tell people that it only applies if they've been pre-selected, and wish them good luck.

It does.
But instead of "pre-selected", I would tell them that if they are a believer, it applies to them.

This passage does not apply to those who couldn't care less about God.

 

[Van]

Luke wrote this:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

The word translated "appointed" means to be appointed by mutual consent. Thus as many Gentiles as accepted the gospel's direction to eternal life believed.

Once again we have an imprecise translation being used to foster bogus doctrine.

 

[Dave G]

Yes they were and called strangers not elect. You cannot see the word elect in this passage you have to imagine it.

"Chosen in Him" in Ephesians 1:4 is the same as "elect".

Definitions:

plural noun: elect
(of a person) chosen or singled out.
"one of the century's elect"

elected to or chosen for a position but not yet in office.
adjective: elect
"the President-Elect"

God's elect = God's chosen.
Please see Ephesians 1:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 2:9.

 

[Dave G]

The word translated "appointed" means to be appointed by mutual consent.

The Greek word is " τάσσω ", transliterated into English as, " tassō ", and it literally means, " having-been-set".
There is no mutual consent there.

Please post what the Greek says, Van.

Once again we have an imprecise translation being used to foster bogus doctrine.

The Greek is what is being translated from.
Every faithful translation I am aware of declares it as "appointed", "ordained", etc.

You seem to be the only one I know of that renders it like this.
If you think your definition is true, then please post your source for others to see.

Mine are here:

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/act13.pdf
G5021 τάσσω - Strong's Greek Lexicon
tasso - Strong's number G5021 - Greek Lexicon | Bible Tools - Messie2vie
GreekLexicon.org: Dictionary entry for Strong's number 5021: τάσσω, Verb: I assign, arrange

 

[MB]

Luke wrote this:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Not a thing in this verse says anything about election. No where in acts does it ever say Gentiles are elect As far as being appointed it still doesn't indicate when they were appointed. They believed of course they were appointed to eternal life. It does sat they believed because they were appointed does it
MB

 

[Dave G]

They believed of course they were appointed to eternal life.

Of course.
That is why they believed.

It does sat they believed because they were appointed does it

Yes.
It does indeed say that they believed because they were appointed.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )

As many as were ordained, appointed, determined, set forth, commissioned, chosen...
To eternal life...
Believed.

And no one else.
Here, I'll lay it out again...

As.
Many.
As.
Were.
Ordained.
To.
Eternal.
Life.
Believed.

Who believed?
As many as were ordained to eternal life.
Who didn't?
Those that were not ordained to eternal life.

There it is, MB.
As clear as it can get.

Question:
Are the words themselves not clear enough?

As I see it, they should be...
I saw it for what it says the very first time I looked at it.

I do hope that I've helped you in some small way, sir.
I'm not sure how much more I can do to make it as clear as possible.

May God bless you.

 

[MB]

"Chosen in Him" in Ephesians 1:4 is the same as "elect".

Definitions:

plural noun: elect
(of a person) chosen or singled out.
"one of the century's elect"

elected to or chosen for a position but not yet in office.
adjective: elect
"the President-Elect"

God's elect = God's chosen.
Please see Ephesians 1:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 2:9.

But the passage is talking to the Jews. Please note that the real story here is in verse 12-13. It is we who chose first.
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
You over look all the underlined because it conflicts with your doctrine.

This is how ACT 13:48 appears in the literal translation.
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;
The word ordained has the same meaning as appointed. But why do you suppose they were so glad. Because they were already saved
MB

 

[Dave G]

But the passage is talking to the Jews. Please note that the real story here is in verse 12-13. It is we who chose first.
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
You over look all the underlined because it conflicts with your doctrine.

This is how ACT 13:48 appears in the literal translation.
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;
The word ordained has the same meaning as appointed. But why do you suppose they were so glad. Because they were already saved
MB

This is my last reply in this thread.
I wish you well sir, and I hope that your future Bible studies are fruitful and edifying.

 

[Iconoclast]

George Antonios

MB is far closer to the truth than you are.

Let's take a look and discover if that is true.

The Jews were elected for a people unto God
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect,
for the express purpose of a people for Christ to come to earth through
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Is this your understanding of God's eternal purpose?

The promise of Gen. 3:15 is going to be fulfilled no matter how God purposed to do it.
He came to Israel because He had set His name there.
That one nation was chosen out from among the nations.
Not everyone in the nation was elected to salvation however.
God reserved to Himself an elect remnant out of the nation;

Isa.1:
9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

The Apostle Paul quotes this in Romans9 to show this elect remnant along with gentiles who are elected make up the Nt.Church.
Looks like you and MB have no understanding of this.
You suggest he gets it at the same time he does not understand that apart from election no one can be saved.
Do you agree with him on this?

Christ came to save His people but they rejected Him
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

So Jesus gave repentance to the Gentiles
because some of them actually believed in Him as the Messiah

Any who believed did so because They were elected to do so.

This would be less painful were it not for the smugness wherewith you dismissed MB's point

It is not painful to refute error of either of you.

 

[Benjamin]

Benjamin,
That verse in Matthew 7:7 is not speaking to "seekers".

Nonsense. You don’t know who is not a seeker or who seeking to increase their faith and has not yet come to belief and been saved. You simply try to conveniently limit the audience to fit your Determinist soteriology into a box and support your denying hope for others who don’t fit your disturbing ideas of limitations by pre-selection, again, you've not learned about Progressive Revelation and the message it brings of salvation being of the Mediator's judgment of their faith. You miss the big picture. Further, a person seeking the truth may or may not come to faith and these words offer true hope and instruction. Simply reading a little further, Mathew 7:21-23 makes this clear that these words are not limited to those who are already securely saved:

(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Calminian]

In the course of a thread in this forum, a couple of brethren asserted that Jesus Christ is not God's criterion for election (I didn't say "salvation", I said "election").
If I understood their position correctly, it's something like this:
We don't know what is God's criterion for electing someone; that criterion is a mystery.
God elects someone unto salvation from eternity past, and then saves that person in time through Jesus Christ.
That is, you weren't chosen unto salvation because of Christ, but Christ is the one who works out your salvation by justifying you and ushering you into heaven.
That is, Christ is simply God's means of effecting the salvation, but not the cause for your being chosen unto salvation.
I wanted to know if all Calvinists here agree with this view, or is it only the view of those two men?

I think if you're going to characterize Calvinism fairly, Jesus Christ is the criterion, because Jesus is God, and choose whom he desires to save.

I don't think the above is a good argument.

 

[Benjamin]

The use of "you" is referring to the recipient's of the letter. Are the recipient's pagans in need of God's grace or has God already chosen them to receive his gift.
Benjamin if I do not give you a gift can you choose to receive it anyway?

John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Give God his props. By his will we are given the right to become children of God.
Scripture is clear. God chooses. You receive.

I will leave it to reader to observe that you have not addressed my arguments against you in the least and simply try to repeat yourself while ignoring the issues that I've raised against your doctrines of Determinism.

 

[Particular]

I will leave it to reader to observe that you have not addressed my arguments against you in the least and simply try to repeat yourself while ignoring the issues that I've raised against your doctrines of Determinism.

Yes, let us leave it to the readers.

 

[Aaron]

You can laugh at scripture if you want that your business.. Although it is a Pharisaical gesture.
MB

Laughing at you, brah. But it's pointless to argue anymore.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not a thing in this verse says anything about election. No where in acts does it ever say Gentiles are elect As far as being appointed it still doesn't indicate when they were appointed. They believed of course they were appointed to eternal life. It does sat they believed because they were appointed does it
MB

Nowhere in Acts does it say that anyone was born again, either!

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, let us leave it to the readers.

I am a reader and you have addressed Ben's concerns.

 

[Van]

The Greek word is " τάσσω ", transliterated into English as, " tassō ", and it literally means, " having-been-set".
There is no mutual consent there.

Please post what the Greek says, Van.

The Greek is what is being translated from.
Every faithful translation I am aware of declares it as "appointed", "ordained", etc.

You seem to be the only one I know of that renders it like this.
If you think your definition is true, then please post your source for others to see.

Mine are here:

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/act13.pdf
G5021 τάσσω - Strong's Greek Lexicon
tasso - Strong's number G5021 - Greek Lexicon | Bible Tools - Messie2vie
GreekLexicon.org: Dictionary entry for Strong's number 5021: τάσσω, Verb: I assign, arrange

HI Dave, once again your assertions are bogus

Ask yourself how an "appointment" is made at your doctor's office. The higher authority provides a date and time and you agree. So the word includes both that the higher authority decides, determines, establishes the requirement, and then you or whoever is being "appointed" agrees, thus an appointment by mutual agreement.

This is the meaning in Acts 13:48, those that agreed with the gospel requirements believed.