I don't think the creation/evolution issue is any more essential than the other items listed. It's certainly not a doctrinal issue. The only doctrinal item is that God created. If someone doesn't believe God created, then I would agree with you. But every Genesis non-literalist Christian I know believes firmly that God created.
While I have great respect for your desire to see harmony and avoid division I would remind you that the Bible makes it a mandate for us to remove any ideology that exhalts itself against the knowledge of God.
2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
The ideology of evolution was popularized out of a man who rejected Christianity because his daughter who died trajicly and he blamed God for it (Darwin). Charles Darwin could no longer tolerate a God who created/allowed such pain, suffering, and death. Evolution is a humanistic religion, and it certainly qualifies in the 'exhalting itself against the knowlege of God' category. Darwin was so mislead about the world we live in and the death of his daughter.
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Evolution seeks actively to remove God and his role as creator and author, as well as seeking to obscure the very reason we are here on earth - to be stewards of God to this creation. Created in his image to have dominion over this earth as He has dominion over us.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
It is an attempt (as it seems are your comments, Johnv) to elevate Christian religion into a state of mind or ideology. This gives it this place of being lofty and pretencious, having no practicality and not involving or interacting with "the real world". Nothing could be farther from the truth. Christianity, unlike any other religion, is a living breathing relationship with the creator of the universe. It's practicality reaches far past the lofty ideological and into the daily real.
Those who say that christianity is not science or vise versa are, in my opinion, those who do not live out their Christian walk with God as it was intended. The natural and supernatural go hand in hand daily. The natural does not exist except for the supernatural that placed it there and that continuously holds it there every second. How then is it some unreachable, unattainable goal for the supernatural to influence the natural? It is not. Faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains.
Evolution is a humanistic ideology based on the premise that millions of years of death and suffering (aka natural selection et al) caused simple cells to eventually form into man. Nevermind that the Bible directly states that God formed man - lets take this a step further.
Look at Romans chapter 5. With a Creationism understanding these verses take on enormous power and life.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
PIONT 1 - Sin is the enemy of God.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
POINT 2 - Adam's disobedience in the Garden of Eden (know as 'The Fall') caused sin to enter the world.
POINT 3 - Death entered the world because of Adam's sin.
Therefore - with points 1-3 we can see that Sin is the enemy of God, sin entered the world because of adam's disobedience, and death entered the world because of sin.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
I want you to see how many times God declares his creation to be "Good". All throughout the creation ... after each day... after each step, God declares his creation Good.
First, if sin didn't enter the world until Adam's disobedience, then neither did death. Death only reigned after Adam sinned (rom 5:14).
Second, if there is no death leading up to Adam, then there are no fossils leading up to Adam. Moreover, Natural selection is the mechanism in evolution for directionally administrating mutational change upward according to evolutionary thought. If there was no death, there is no 'survival of the fittest'.
Thirdly, God declared everything ... each step in the creative days ... Good. If sin is the enemy of God, and Death is the result of sin (as Romans 5 declares irrefutably), how then is a history built from and predicated on death and mutation declared 'Good' by God?
THAT is what evolution ultimately teaches... THAT is the humanistic message... THAT is a high thing exhalting itself against the knowlege of God.
[rhetorical]Lets keep this religious creation mumbo jumbo out of schools... lets teach our kids that the Bible is not practical or true - it's simply an ideology. There's no real world relevance to it - it's just a book we use to see where the concept of morals came from ... it's not really for today. [/rhetorical]
HOGWASH!! The Bible is just as true today as it was when it was written. It is just as powerful today as "God's Word" as it was when God uttered the words to create our space, time, universe, and the earth. It is just as practical today as it was for Adam... and as it was for Jesus. It is just as true today as it was 6000 years ago when the earth was created.
Now the evolutionists here can certainly choose to believe humanism over God's word. You guys can keep on taking what 'the world' tells you is true and trying to fit it into the Bible, or try to reconcile humanistic science with humanistic christianity - but I will stand on Truth. I will stand on the Word of God. I will take the approach that man's ideas are flawed and that God's ideas are right, and true. I will FIRST AND FOREMOST believe God's word in it's entirety, and take it as absolute truth. I will then interpret the world I see based on biblical truth, and not on the whims of a corrupted, sinful man.
Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
We were created perfect and entire wanting nothing, but we fell. Now we live in a dead and dying world full of corruption and death. This is a result of Adam's (and all of our) sin. All have sinned and are sinners.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Eveything in the old testament points towards the cross. Everything in the new testament points back to the cross. This is the good news (gospel) of the Bible... this makes 10,000 times more sense with a proper understanding of Genesis and creation.
Jesus paid the ultimate price for us so that we didn't have to be ruled by death.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Do you realize that Jesus' resurrection was the PHYSICAL NATURAL result of what he did on the cross? He took the keys to hell away from Satan. JESUS CONQUERED DEATH! It was a real physical action, just as it was a real physical action for death to enter the world by Adam's sin.
Christian's ask the question then, why don't people who get saved lived forever? The answer is - they do, just not in the same temporal body. Remember, Jesus calls 'getting saved' getting 'born again' or the new birth. Jesus had a new body waiting for him on the other side of death.
Romans Chapter 6 describes this.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
So then, the penalty for sin is death. Death is a result of sin. Jesus essentially condemned death to die with our natural bodies. Our 'spirit' lives on for eternity in a new body just as Jesus' did. Our new bodies are no longer bound by death. They are eternal.
This takes on a whole new meaning and light when you realize that the Bible is scientifically true, and what is being talked about here is real. The whole Bible is enlivened and amplified by the realization that Adam was real, what is written about him is absolutely true, and it has a DIRECT EFFECT on YOU! Evolution tries to remove the direct effect on you of Genesis - it tries to elevate christianity into some unrealistic ideological place where it never comes in contact with reality. The opposite is true. Adam was real, the Bible is true, Jesus came for exactly the reason Genesis describes (to redeem us from the fall).
Lets take a lesson from Paul. He knew the difference between speaking to Jews and speaking to Greeks.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Here we see that the Jews knew who and what the Messiah (Christ) was. Paul had only to tell them who Jesus was for them to believe and be saved. Their entire culture is based on the Old Testament. They knew The Word and who God was. they had a tremendously solid foundation in scripture. However the Greeks did not. When Paul spoke of Jesus and the resurrection and the messiah the Greeks just thought this was foolishness. Why would anyone want to 'get saved' if they don't know they are lost? The Bible says the Greeks seek after wisdom or knowlege (reason, ideology).
If you read Acts 17 you will see that he went to the synagogue and proclaimed Jesus as the Christ (the messiah prophesied to come). The Jews searched the scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was so and many of them believed and were saved (accepted Jesus).
He then went to Athens (a Greek City) and spoke to Jews there. Greeks heard this and called him a babbeler and said he spoke of strange things.
Paul had to completely revisit his strategy when speaking to Greeks. These people knew nothing of Adam - they didn't know the creation account of Genesis. They didn't know about the fall of man and that they were sinners. They didn't know they needed a Savior. What did Paul do?
Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this [matter].
We see first he connected to their culture. He then asserted Biblical authority (that God is utimate and supreme owner of all - his word and law are final). He then laid the foundation for belief by telling them about Creaiton. He needed to let them know the significance of Jesus' visit to earth. He needed to tell them WHY they need a savior before convincing them that Jesus was that savior. He included physical evidence that showed why THEY were included - they were all ONE BLOOD and all from Adam, therefore Adam's sin covered them as well. (Young Earth Creationism is the best message against racism that there could ever be) Then, finally, when he had laid all that foundation, he told them about Jesus and about the resurrection.
Now let me ask you a question - is the culture in the USA increasingly more like the Jews or increasingly more like the Greeks? If we say Jesus is the Messiah, do people here automatically know what that means? If we say Jesus died for your sins, does that mean anything to people? If we tell people they are a sinner they just think you're foolish.
I would submit that the USA and Western culture is increasingly more and more like the Greeks. Paul gives us a clear example of how to minister Jesus to these people.
Note that back in the 1950's 'Turn or Burn' revival tent meetings met with some success. These days, the 'turn or burn' attitude is scoffed at and 'bible thumpers' are ridiculed by the Western Culture to no end. Why is this? Because increasingly the culture doesn't identify or understand the basic scirptures. Prayer and Creation are no longer acceptable in our public schools.
Our schools now teach evolution as fact. This paints a 'history' that is a legacy of death and struggle for millions of years - instead of a recent and direct creation by God as the Bible describes.
Who said this: "Change a people's history and you can make them into anything." That was Carl Marx - the one who wrote the Manifest of the Communist Party.
JohnV - one result of your post is that it did make me take a look at the way I was arguing the 'creation vs evolution' debate. We are all Christians here (presummably). We need to come at this issue from the Bible's perspective, and not worry so much about trying to refute the science. Afterall - operational science is much different from historical or origin science. Operational science is exactly the same for the most part when it comes to creationists and evolutionists. In fact, most YEC these days used to be evolutionists and have come to the realization of the truth as revealed in the Bible.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, [Art] thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
The story of Joshua always rings true in my mind. In debate, there is always two sides. However, we should try to remember that 'reality' is on God's side. Sometimes this falls a little into both sides, sometimes neither. If we FIRST take the Bible as absolute truth, and believe that foremost then let our observation be based on that framework - we should land closer to truth in our conclusions.
