RaptureReady
New Member
S T O P right there. I am in no way a modernist. The King James Bible is God's infallible, inerrant, inspired word of God. Other versions may contain enough to get a person saved, but they are not THE word of God.
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IfbReformer
New Member
Homebound's statement
So lets understand his statement in this light:
"I'd rather believe the Bible[The King James Version of the Bible] then believe what someone says that don't believe the Bible[that the King James Version of the Bible is the preservered Word of God by which all other translations before it or after it - or Greek manuscripts must be judged to be valid]."
Just so we are all clear.
IFBReformer
Just wanted to clearify for those who are observing this discussion what homebound means when he says "the Bible". He means the 9th translation of the Bible in English, the King James Version.
So lets understand his statement in this light:
"I'd rather believe the Bible[The King James Version of the Bible] then believe what someone says that don't believe the Bible[that the King James Version of the Bible is the preservered Word of God by which all other translations before it or after it - or Greek manuscripts must be judged to be valid]."
Just so we are all clear.
IFBReformer
Don't mean to muddy the waters, but when I saw the subject of this thread, i thought it was about the popular teaching among Word of Faith Churches. They teach that Christ died spiritually, went to hell where he suffered in flames, was punished by demons and then born again -- and later resurrected.
The view was made popular by E.W. Kenyon, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin and other TV preachers.
Paul Billhamer (sp?, in his book Destined for the Throne, also believed that Christ suffered in hell. The book had a Foreword by Billy Graham, as I recall.
Roscoe
The view was made popular by E.W. Kenyon, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin and other TV preachers.
Paul Billhamer (sp?, in his book Destined for the Throne, also believed that Christ suffered in hell. The book had a Foreword by Billy Graham, as I recall.
Roscoe
Bethelassoc
Member
I use the KJV because it's what I am comfortable with. I am confident in its translation, but then again, if I grew up on the Geneva Bible, I would be an advocate of it, as well.
That's beside the point. I still use a concordance when studying certain words to get a better definition. Hell translates into Hades, Sheol, Gehenna...Tartarus....
The question is, "Why is hell used in place of hades, etc,? Because the term may have best fit the Hebrew and Greek enough for it to make sense.
You can make the same argument about "love" and it's various forms: since these greek terms are all forms of love, use love instead of "agape", for instance.
Anyway, I have to agree with the idea that Christ went to the "unknown" to retrieve souls and keys.....and not to be punished by demons!!
That's beside the point. I still use a concordance when studying certain words to get a better definition. Hell translates into Hades, Sheol, Gehenna...Tartarus....
The question is, "Why is hell used in place of hades, etc,? Because the term may have best fit the Hebrew and Greek enough for it to make sense.
You can make the same argument about "love" and it's various forms: since these greek terms are all forms of love, use love instead of "agape", for instance.
Anyway, I have to agree with the idea that Christ went to the "unknown" to retrieve souls and keys.....and not to be punished by demons!!
The source texts that were used by the KJV translators are redily available in Christian bookstores today. Many study bibles have the translated text and the source texts printed side by side. The fact that you refuse to acknowlege that shows you refusal to accept the facts that are in my posts about the topic.
I'm not stating opinion or preference. I'm stating plain hard biblical fact. Your assertion that Jesus died and went to Gehenna is a complete falsehood.
[/QUOTE][/QB]
Then the KJV is in error, if it leads you to believe that "hell" in the verse is the hell described as Gehenna.
Only if they believe the biblical falsehood that you assert. If, however, they understand that "hell" in the KJV, in that verse, referrs to Hades/Sheol, then they'd be right, and the KJV would be right in their eyes.
Jesus is telling a parable. You're attempting to take it out of context. If you assert that Abraham's bosom is equal to, for example, heaven, that would make no sense, since Abraham was not one of th OT folks who was "taken up". Also, if you took it literally, you'd presume that salvation is works based (since the parable is speaking of good works). OTOH, if you take the parable in its context, you'd get the REAL understanding of the story, which has nothing to do with the afterlife at all.
That's not opinion. That's fact.
RaptureReady
New Member
The source texts that were used by the KJV translators are redily available in Christian bookstores today. Many study bibles have the translated text and the source texts printed side by side. The fact that you refuse to acknowlege that shows you refusal to accept the facts that are in my posts about the topic. </font>[/QUOTE]Not talking about a copy of a copy of a copy, I mean the originals. You don't have them and neither does anyone else.
Okay Johnv, Luke 16:19-31 is all an allegory?
It never happened - that's your story and you're sticking to it?
ALLEGORY (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)
1a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form. b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories. 2. A symbolic representation...
So here's the story as you understand it...
A certain rich man never existed - Jesus made him up.
A certain beggar named Lazarus - Jesus made him up.
The rich man's gate - make believe.
Lazarus' sores - make believe.
Lazarus' hunger, the dogs licking - all made up.
Rich man's sumptous meals - never happened.
The beggar died - Not!
The rich man died - No way!
Angels to carry the beggar to Abraham's bosom - unreal.
Rich man buried and in hell - Johnv says it never happened.
Torments in hell - allegorical - not real torments.
"I am tormented in this flame." - Make Believe Flames - You couldn't roast a hot dog in those flames!
Lazarus 'comforted' in Abraham's bosom - bogus.
Rich man's torment in the flames of hell - bogus too.
Rich man's concern for his five brethren - Fake - Made up!
Chances of them coming to this place of torment - Zero!
My amusement at watching Johnv struggle to deny the literal truth of Luke 16:19-31 - Priceless!
It never happened - that's your story and you're sticking to it?
ALLEGORY (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)
1a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form. b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories. 2. A symbolic representation...
So here's the story as you understand it...
A certain rich man never existed - Jesus made him up.
A certain beggar named Lazarus - Jesus made him up.
The rich man's gate - make believe.
Lazarus' sores - make believe.
Lazarus' hunger, the dogs licking - all made up.
Rich man's sumptous meals - never happened.
The beggar died - Not!
The rich man died - No way!
Angels to carry the beggar to Abraham's bosom - unreal.
Rich man buried and in hell - Johnv says it never happened.
Torments in hell - allegorical - not real torments.
"I am tormented in this flame." - Make Believe Flames - You couldn't roast a hot dog in those flames!
Lazarus 'comforted' in Abraham's bosom - bogus.
Rich man's torment in the flames of hell - bogus too.
Rich man's concern for his five brethren - Fake - Made up!
Chances of them coming to this place of torment - Zero!
My amusement at watching Johnv struggle to deny the literal truth of Luke 16:19-31 - Priceless!
Johnv says: “I'm not stating opinion or preference. I'm stating plain hard biblical fact. Your assertion that Jesus died and went to Gehenna is a complete falsehood.
You’re getting desperate Johnv. I never stated that Jesus died and went to gehenna. I was using sarcasm to illuminate your denial of the literal truth of Luke 16...At no time did I say that Jesus went to gehenna in Luke 16...
I DID Ask if YOU believed the flames of gehenna and the fire in the lake of fire were allegorical too. You declined to answer.
(1) For the record, I DO believe the flames in Luke 16 are real, literal flames, NOT allegorical. I believe they are genuine, punishing, burning, hot flames.
Johnv - What informs your opinion that the flames and the torment of hell in Luke 16 are allegorical?
On what do you base your belief?
* * * * * The subject of this thread is “Did Jesus go to hell after he died?”
John v - You said No and based your response on Jewish custom (supported by the Old Testament) you assert, and on the concept of ‘hades’ & sheol as the ancient Jews & Greeks viewed them.
I said Yes, Jesus went to hell when he died and I gave the verse - Acts 2:31.
* * * * WHY do verses that speak of flames and torment in hell bother you so much? Don’t answer this if its too personal...
(2) For the record I do NOT subscribe to the Word of Faith Heresy mentioned by Tractster “that Christ died spiritually, went to hell where he suffered in flames, was punished by demons and then born again -- and later resurrected.”[/b]
There is NOTHING in the scriptures to indicate that the Lord Jesus Christ suffered in hell.
His suffering took place before the Cross and on the Cross, not in Hell.
You’re getting desperate Johnv. I never stated that Jesus died and went to gehenna. I was using sarcasm to illuminate your denial of the literal truth of Luke 16...At no time did I say that Jesus went to gehenna in Luke 16...
I DID Ask if YOU believed the flames of gehenna and the fire in the lake of fire were allegorical too. You declined to answer.
(1) For the record, I DO believe the flames in Luke 16 are real, literal flames, NOT allegorical. I believe they are genuine, punishing, burning, hot flames.
Johnv - What informs your opinion that the flames and the torment of hell in Luke 16 are allegorical?
On what do you base your belief?
* * * * * The subject of this thread is “Did Jesus go to hell after he died?”
John v - You said No and based your response on Jewish custom (supported by the Old Testament) you assert, and on the concept of ‘hades’ & sheol as the ancient Jews & Greeks viewed them.
I said Yes, Jesus went to hell when he died and I gave the verse - Acts 2:31.
* * * * WHY do verses that speak of flames and torment in hell bother you so much? Don’t answer this if its too personal...
(2) For the record I do NOT subscribe to the Word of Faith Heresy mentioned by Tractster “that Christ died spiritually, went to hell where he suffered in flames, was punished by demons and then born again -- and later resurrected.”[/b]
There is NOTHING in the scriptures to indicate that the Lord Jesus Christ suffered in hell.
His suffering took place before the Cross and on the Cross, not in Hell.
Dude, listen to me carefully: It's a PARABLE!!!!!
Say it with me: PA - RA - BLE.
A parable is a brief fictitious narrative illustrating a moral lesson. Jesus was telling a STORY to make a point. He was not giving a literal narrative account of something that actually happenned.
How is that in any way unclear????
It's a parable. It's truth, though not literal truth.
Then you aceept the fact that Hades and Gehenna are two different places in the NT.
Gehenna is not the topic. You're trying to toss out a smokescreen by questioning my beliefs.
It's a parable.
Gehenna hell, no.. Hades/Sheol hell, yes.
Yes. Those are the word the Bible says.
As I already said, the Greek word there is also Hades, which is the Greek word for "Sheol", which is not Hell as we Christians know it (that would be Gehenna).
They don't. Taking biblical verses out of the intended context, however, do.
Which "hell" did Jesus go to??
There are three Greek words translated into one English word "hell" ---
"hades" (hell) - the grave
"gehenna" (hell) - the burning fire - the smoldering trash dump outside of Jerusalem
"tartaroo" (hell) - confinement (only used once, 2Peter 2:4)
http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/ - link
There are three Greek words translated into one English word "hell" ---
"hades" (hell) - the grave
"gehenna" (hell) - the burning fire - the smoldering trash dump outside of Jerusalem
"tartaroo" (hell) - confinement (only used once, 2Peter 2:4)
http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/ - link
I must say that when people put other humans above God, then I must say something. The KJV translators were human, they were not infallible. Please be careful whenever you make assertions that one translation is correct above all others. I pray that before you rely on mere men's thoughts and ideas that you seek God's answers by praying, meditating, asking God, listening to God, seeking Godly counsel, and then allowing the Holy Spirit to give you peace about the answer. I believe that Christ did not go to hell. I love you my Brothers and Sisters in Christ and I look forward to our homecoming in Heaven. I trust God above all.....Gal. 2:20