Jesus/God in Hell?

[Fred's Wife]

I won't say that his interpretation is not a valid one, but I think it requires a certain wresting of the scripture to maintain it. Yes, Noah is mentioned in those verses, but it does not say that Christ preached through Noah to those people in Noah's day.

It is indeed a somewhat hard to understand passage, but reading into the scripture what is not there doesn't help.

From what I read on your website, on the "Personal Beliefs" link, I can fully understand why you don't agree with the commentaries I posted here.

http://www.celtic-anabaptist-ministries.com/personal_beliefs.html

My personal beliefs are profiled here; not everyone will agree with them.

Hell

The word translated "eternal" in relation to hell in the New Testament does not mean eternal in the original languages, but rather means an "eon," or "age," -- a long, indefinite period of time. My view of the duration of hell does not embrace an unconditional universalism, an unconditional eternal hell, nor annihilationism. My view could be summarized as follows: In principle, separation from God can be final. A person could so misuse his freedom that he might lose his freedom to respond to God. He could turn his back on God for so long that he might no longer hear God calling him. Therefore, to deny the possibilty of an eternal hell would be to limit man's freedom.

However, we have grounds for believing that God does not alter His saving activity toward those who have died. For instance, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 4:6 strongly suggests that the apostolic mind thought that change is possible in the life beyond. Thus, the ancient practice of prayers for the dead does not have to imply a belief in purgatory; it could be done on the basis of the belief that God, directly and through those who serve Him, continues to seek those who have closed themselves off from God. If this is true, then the door to hell is locked only from the inside. For these reasons, I believe that the door to repentance is never closed -- neither in this life, nor in the next.

There is no wresting of the Scriptures in those two commentaries I posted, and they are not difficult to understand once they are studied out. However, I will not engage you in a debate that will get nowhere fast. I am one of those of the "not everyone" who does not agree with your personal belief on hell.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

From what I read on your website, on the "Personal Beliefs" link, I can fully understand why you don't agree with the commentaries I posted here.

There is no wresting of the Scriptures in those two commentaries I posted, and they are not difficult to understand once they are studied out. However, I will not engage you in a debate that will get nowhere fast. I am one of those of the "not everyone" who does not agree with your personal belief on hell.

With all due respect -- and I mean that -- you don't know what I believe. And my mention of those verses on our website is to point out a possibility, as I said on the site.

I am simply saying that in the commentary that you posted and I responded to, it takes a certain wresting of the scripture to maintain that it is saying Christ preached through Noah; that is not what that scripture passage says.

My views of hell have nothing to do with this discussion. I am talking specifically of one passage and what it could mean. I am willing to consider different possibilities. But I prefer to take the scripture as it is written and try to discern the meaning rather than try to make the scripture say something it doesn't.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

You posted your beliefs on your website. What do you mean my wife doesn't know what you believe?

Christ speaks to us today through His Word and through His people... just as He spoke by His Spirit through Noah in the days Noah was building the Ark.

Neither my wife, nor myself are wresting the Scriptures. Scripture, when rightly divided, reveal that Christ preached "when the ark was a preparing.".

When the Ark was preparing reveals that the preaching that Chriist preached (as referenced in 1 Peter 3) was done while the people of the Earth were still living breathing creatures... not after the flood, but before. Christ preached while the Ark was being built.

How did He preach? By His Spirit (again referencing 1 Peter 3)

Through whom did He preach? Through the man He used at that time... Noah.

Hebrews 1:1 (KJV) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


In Noah's day, God used Noah to preach to those who had incurred His global wrath, for 120 years... while the ark was a preparing.

If there is any "wresting of Scripture", it is you doing the wresting; not my wife, not myself, nor is it the commentators we quoted.

 

[Moriah]

Very thoughtful post there.

Thank you!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

You posted your beliefs on your website. What do you mean my wife doesn't know what you believe?


Just that -- one small statement om my site about possibilities does not reveal my entire belief system or even my beliefs in this area.


Christ speaks to us today through His Word and through His people... just as He spoke by His Spirit through Noah in the days Noah was building the Ark.

Neither my wife, nor myself are wresting the Scriptures. Scripture, when rightly divided, reveal that Christ preached "when the ark was a preparing.".


I wasn't referring to either of you; I was referring to the person in the source your wife posted. I did not know if that was the same way you viewed the passage or not.



When the Ark was preparing reveals that the preaching that Chriist preached (as referenced in 1 Peter 3) was done while the people of the Earth were still living breathing creatures... not after the flood, but before. Christ preached while the Ark was being built.

How did He preach? By His Spirit (again referencing 1 Peter 3)

Through whom did He preach? Through the man He used at that time... Noah.

Hebrews 1:1 (KJV) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


In Noah's day, God used Noah to preach to those who had incurred His global wrath, for 120 years... while the ark was a preparing.

If there is any "wresting of Scripture", it is you doing the wresting; not my wife, not myself, nor is it the commentators we quoted.

You must have missed or ignored what I said about the view presented being a valid one. However, it is quite evident that in the specific passage in 1 Peter 3 that has been referenced, it does not say what the commentator claims it says, thus the "wresting of scripture" comment I made.

 

[Moriah]

Those to whom Jesus preached to in prison were not every person who lived and died prior to the cross.

1 Peter 3 is clear as to who He preached to... the disobedient of Noah's day... specifically those who were disobedient during the period of time that the ark was being built.

I believe they were every person who lived and died prior to the cross. The scriptures say Jesus preached to those who are now dead. Then the scriptures say Jesus died once for ALL. How could someone not see that Jesus preached for all who are now dead, when that is what the scriptures say? The Bible starts to speak of the time of Noah to show us how far back of in time from whence the people came!

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me ask something here.

Aren't the passages we're discussing used as proof texts that Jesus went to Hell and suffered there for three days? The point made is that in order to Jesus to take the punishment for our sins, he actually had to take our punishment--which would be Hell.

I don't think that's the point of those scriptures, but I have heard that view expressed.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I believe they were every person who lived and died prior to the cross. The scriptures say Jesus preached to those who are now dead. Then the scriptures say Jesus died once for ALL. How could someone not see that Jesus preached for all who are now dead, when that is what the scriptures say? The Bible starts to speak of the time of Noah to show us how far back of in time from whence the people came!

The Scripture specifically says Jesus preached to those who were disobedient in Noah's day while the ark was a preparing. To say it He preached to those after the flood is to add to Scripture.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Let me ask something here.

Aren't the passages we're discussing used as proof texts that Jesus went to Hell and suffered there for three days? The point made is that in order to Jesus to take the punishment for our sins, he actually had to take our punishment--which would be Hell.

I don't think that's the point of those scriptures, but I have heard that view expressed.

It isn't the point of those Scriptures. Those Scriptures state clearly that Jesus preached to those who were disobedient in Noah's day during the time the ark was being built. He did not have to go to hell to preach to them, they were still alive at the time He preached to them.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

It isn't the point of those Scriptures. Those Scriptures state clearly that Jesus preached to those who were disobedient in Noah's day during the time the ark was being built. He did not have to go to hell to preach to them, they were still alive at the time He preached to them.

The scripture passage does not state that, so it is you who is adding to scripture.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

1 Peter 3:18 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Those He preached to were those disobedient while the ark was a preparing. One cannot get "all people before the cross" out of 1 Peter 3:18-20. It is speaking of a certain people at a certain time.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Let me ask something here.

Aren't the passages we're discussing used as proof texts that Jesus went to Hell and suffered there for three days? The point made is that in order to Jesus to take the punishment for our sins, he actually had to take our punishment--which would be Hell.

I don't think that's the point of those scriptures, but I have heard that view expressed.

I have heard that, too. I don't agree with it.

I think all these views being presented have some validity, in that a case and defense can be made for them. But I notice that to do so, the scripture has to be "explained" to make it say something it doesn't.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I always like to find out what the early church believed and taught based on its reading and interpretation of scripture.

In the Apostles Creed, one of the earliest Christian confessions of faith, the following statement is made about Jesus Christ: "He descended into hell."

 

[Michael Wrenn]

1 Peter 3:18 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Those He preached to were those disobedient while the ark was a preparing. One cannot get "all people before the cross" out of 1 Peter 3:18-20. It is speaking of a certain people at a certain time.

But it does not say that He preached to them through Noah while the ark was a preparing. You can't get that out of those verses.

Why can't you just take the scripture in its literal sense which says that after Jesus died, he went to the realm of the dead (hell, as in the Apostles Creed) and preached to the spirits -- yes, those from the days of Noah -- who were imprisoned there? That is apparently what the passage means and how the early church interpreted it.

 

[Moriah]

The Scripture specifically says Jesus preached to those who were disobedient in Noah's day while the ark was a preparing. To say it He preached to those after the flood is to add to Scripture.

My beliefs do not add to the scriptures. The scriptures plainly and clearly say Jesus WAS PUT TO DEATH IN THE BODY BUT MADE ALIVE BY THE SPIRIT THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE WENT AND PREACHED TO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON who disobeyed long ago… See 1 Peter 3:18-20.
Now read 1 Peter 4:56.

5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Case closed. The scriptures simply and plainly show that Jesus preached to the dead spirits.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

But it does not say that He preached to them through Noah while the ark was a preparing. You can't get that out of those verses.

Why can't you just take the scripture in its literal sense which says that after Jesus died, he went to the realm of the dead (hell, as in the Apostles Creed) and preached to the spirits -- yes, those from the days of Noah -- who were imprisoned there? That is apparently what the passage means and how the early church interpreted it.

Where does it say in that passage that Jesus preached after He died?

You accuse me of reading something in the verse that is not there, and you turn around and read into the verse something that is not there.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The Apostles Creed was not written until near the end of the 4th Century A.D., by the Romish Church.

I reject it. It is not the Word of God. The Word of God does not say Jesus preached in hell.

Ain't if funny how the 4th Century Catholics come up with Creeds and doctrines long after the Apostles died and then try to attribute their heresies to the Apostles?

Sadly, many read those creeds and doctrines promulgated by the Romish Church and take them to be truth.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Where does it say in that passage that Jesus preached after He died?

You accuse me of reading something in the verse that is not there, and you turn around and read into the verse something that is not there.

What Moriah said.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The Apostles Creed was not written until near the end of the 4th Century A.D., by the Romish Church.

I reject it. It is not the Word of God. The Word of God does not say Jesus preached in hell.

Ain't if funny how the 4th Century Catholics come up with Creeds and doctrines long after the Apostles died and then try to attribute their heresies to the Apostles?

Sadly, many read those creeds and doctrines promulgated by the Romish Church and take them to be truth.

The name of it came from the 5th century, but it was in written form by the late second century and based on scripture. So in no way can it be called a "Romish" creed.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

My beliefs do not add to the scriptures. The scriptures plainly and clearly say Jesus WAS PUT TO DEATH IN THE BODY BUT MADE ALIVE BY THE SPIRIT THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE WENT AND PREACHED TO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON who disobeyed long ago… See 1 Peter 3:18-20.
Now read 1 Peter 4:56.

5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Case closed. The scriptures simply and plainly show that Jesus preached to the dead spirits.

1 Peter 3 reveals that the only ones Christ preached to were those who were disobedient while the ark was being built.

1 Peter 4:5,6 say nothing whatsoever of Christ preaching to people after they had died... only that He preached to them that are now dead. It doesn't say "preached also to them that were dead". If it dead, there might be credibility to your claim.

You do add to Scripture when you say after He died He preached to all who died prior to the cross.