Jesus had a human nature?

[JDale]

Christ did not have a sin nature.

Correct -- Christ did not have a "sin nature." Neither did Adam when He was created by God. Adam didn't have a human father or mother either (and probably not a belly button!). Does that mean Adam was not human?

To be "in the flesh" as a human does not necessitate that one has a sin nature -- if one does not become human through the normal course of conception by means of a human father and mother. Jesus was fully human, though He did not have a human Father. That was the miracle of the Virgin Birth. If Jesus "could not be fully human" because He did not have a human father, then the Virgin Birth was a colossal waste of God's time.

One errs when he/she assumes that God "cannot" become incarnate in the flesh as a human, "yet without sin." One must deny the kind of humiliation it was to become human. Paul points this out in Philippians 2:5-8 :

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

The "Hypostatic Union" was not deemed truth on the whim of a few ill-informed Early Church Fathers. It was not arrived at because a Pope or Patriarch thought it would make for good "mystery" to add to medieval liturgy. It was determined over 400 years of the study of Scripture, and the deliberations of many of the Early Church Fathers, and the saints of that age whose names and sacrifices we will not know on this side of heaven.

Please be aware that all of Church History testfies against any who hold that Jesus was not two natures (Human & Divine) in one Person -- The God/Man. The Scriptures and the Saints throughout history have affirmed this truth as essential to the faith -- there is no room to deny it as Fundamental to the Faith.

JDale

 

[Joe]

Correct -- Christ did not have a "sin nature." Neither did Adam when He was created by God. Adam didn't have a human father or mother either (and probably not a belly button!). Does that mean Adam was not human?

To be "in the flesh" as a human does not necessitate that one has a sin nature -- if one does not become human through the normal course of conception by means of a human father and mother. Jesus was fully human, though He did not have a human Father. That was the miracle of the Virgin Birth. If Jesus "could not be fully human" because He did not have a human father, then the Virgin Birth was a colossal waste of God's time.

One errs when he/she assumes that God "cannot" become incarnate in the flesh as a human, "yet without sin." One must deny the kind of humiliation it was to become human. Paul points this out in Philippians 2:5-8 :

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

The "Hypostatic Union" was not deemed truth on the whim of a few ill-informed Early Church Fathers. It was not arrived at because a Pope or Patriarch thought it would make for good "mystery" to add to medieval liturgy. It was determined over 400 years of the study of Scripture, and the deliberations of many of the Early Church Fathers, and the saints of that age whose names and sacrifices we will not know on this side of heaven.

Please be aware that all of Church History testfies against any who hold that Jesus was not two natures (Human & Divine) in one Person -- The God/Man. The Scriptures and the Saints throughout history have affirmed this truth as essential to the faith -- there is no room to deny it as Fundamental to the Faith.

JDale

I don't think anyone here is denying that Jesus wasn't fully human, just the 100% wording and that may be symantics.
Jesus was fully human with a human nature and fully God at the same time.

An important similarity between the first and second Adam was they both did not get sick. Jesus would have inherited some sicknesses, disease or mutation passed from his mother's sin nature if he had he been conceived using her seed.
Imho, the holy spirit overshadowed her so she conceived. She carried baby Jesus in her womb, she acted similar to an incubator. So the first and second Adam had much in common

 

[webdog]

Matthew 8:31-32 "And the demons begged him, saying, "If you cast us out, send us away into the herd of pigs." 32And he said to them, "Go." So they came out and went into the pigs, and behold, the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the waters. "

Did Jesus sin in obeying the demons?

He didn't obey them, He granted a request. The demons weren't tempting Jesus...satan was.

 

[annsni]

He didn't obey them, He granted a request. The demons weren't tempting Jesus...satan was.

I don't see the difference between the two. Both told Jesus what to do, one Jesus did, the other He did not.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I don't see the difference between the two. Both told Jesus what to do, one Jesus did, the other He did not.

The devils did not tell Jesus what to do. Scripture says they besought him to send them into the swine. The word besought means begged. look at the last verse in that same chapter this account is found... Matthew 8.

The last verse uses the same word "parakaleo" which means to beg, to ask of.

The last verse says the people besought the Lord that He would depart out of their coasts.

It was not a telling the Lord what to do at all.

 

[blackbird]

The devils did not tell Jesus what to do. Scripture says they besought him to send them into the swine. The word besought means begged. look at the last verse in that same chapter this account is found... Matthew 8.

The last verse uses the same word "parakaleo" which means to beg, to ask of.

The last verse says the people besought the Lord that He would depart out of their coasts.

It was not a telling the Lord what to do at all.

SFIC----you brought up something interesting here----something I've never thought of before

(1) The demons "besought" Jesus to cast them into the swine

(2) The people "besought" Jesus to leave

Same "wave lengh" between the minds of those demons and the minds of those people there in Gadara????

 

[standingfirminChrist]

SFIC----you brought up something interesting here----something I've never thought of before

(1) The demons "besought" Jesus to cast them into the swine

(2) The people "besought" Jesus to leave

Same "wave lengh" between the minds of those demons and the minds of those people there in Gadara????

Blackbird,
Years ago I preached a message, "What Have We To Do With Thee?."

In it, I brought out this very passage in one of the points. These people had the very same mind as the devils that Christ had just cleansed the man of...

In essence, "What Have We To Do With Thee?" was the very cry from these people. "We aren't ready to turn from wickedness! We aren't ready to hear judgment! We are not ready to serve the Living God.

It is a picture of the world today, and even more than it was when I preached this message some 14 years ago.

 

[lbaker]

I don't think anyone here is denying that Jesus wasn't fully human, just the 100% wording and that may be symantics.
Jesus was fully human with a human nature and fully God at the same time.

An important similarity between the first and second Adam was they both did not get sick. Jesus would have inherited some sicknesses, disease or mutation passed from his mother's sin nature if he had he been conceived using her seed.
Imho, the holy spirit overshadowed her so she conceived. She carried baby Jesus in her womb, she acted similar to an incubator. So the first and second Adam had much in common

What scriptural proof do you have that Jesus never got sick? That is just speculation. If He couldn't get sick how could He have understood our "infirmities".

Also, assuming that Adam had something added to him after the Fall (other than a knowledge of good and evil) is just speculation. There is no passage that says that ever happened.

If Jesus couldn't sin then the whole bit about Him being sinless would just be a joke. He would apparently have had no choice, no free will, other than to be sinless. So, it would be no big deal to Him. He could just waltz through life untouched, and untouchable, the Teflon Messiah.

Seems like we are reading a bunch of stuff in that is not in the text just to make scripture match up with what we think we already know, IMHO.

 

[lbaker]

Isn't that what people are meaning when they say "sin nature" - the sinful nature, i.e., the fallen nature?









For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom. 8:6-8


I think the above, along with other passages, give us a basis for believing that man has a fallen nature that rebels against God (called the sin nature).

The passage from Romans 8 above doesn't actually say anything about Adam having a sin nature added to him after the Fall. I'm not arguing that we aren't sinful, or prone to sin - just that the tendency to sin was there all along, from the beginning and if Jesus was human He would have had the same nature to struggle with, only He was able to beat it.

 

[webdog]

I don't see the difference between the two. Both told Jesus what to do, one Jesus did, the other He did not.

There is a difference between granting a wish and obedience. If my son asks for a toy, me giving it to him is not obedience to him.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

Christ was not born a sinner. He could not sin. He did not have a sin nature.

 

[Amy.G]

We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

Did Adam sin because he was a sinner?

 

[Amy.G]

There is a difference between granting a wish and obedience. If my son asks for a toy, me giving it to him is not obedience to him.

I agree that Christ did not obey the demons. Perhaps He granted their wish in order to show His power and authority to the unbelievers who were watching.

 

[webdog]

We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

Christ was not born a sinner. He could not sin. He did not have a sin nature.

Sinner by definition is one who sins. That phrase is one of the most quoted and misused statements in the church today.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Did Adam sin because he was a sinner?

The first Adam was of the earth, earthy (dusty and dirty, soil-like); the second Adam was the Lord from heaven.

From this verse, it would appear Christ's flesh was not the same as ours... even though it was flesh.

 

[Joe]

What scriptural proof do you have that Jesus never got sick? That is just speculation. If He couldn't get sick how could He have understood our "infirmities".

The Lord himself stated he became thirsty, hungry, and weak, YET in that sentence, it never includes sick. Maybe he wasn't sick in that instance. But it never states Jesus got sick.

Matthew 25:35 NKJV
for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;



Jesus "bore" our infirmities (sicknesses) as opposed to the Bible clearly stating Jesus was hungry, thirsty and weak. Meaning Jesus felt what it was like to be sick, yet never actually became sick imho.

Isaiah 53:4(KJV)
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Matthew 8:17(KJV)
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

( NIV translates the word "griefs" in Isiah 53:4 as infirmities. But I don't trust the NIV translation like I do the KJV so I chose the KJV passages which include the word infirmities)

Also, assuming that Adam had something added to him after the Fall (other than a knowledge of good and evil) is just speculation. There is no passage that says that ever happened.

I'm not sure what the definition of "it" is exactly. But I will say as time goes by, mutations, sicknesses and diseases are passed down to children via the mother and fathers side. This is the result of a sin nature, something men and women posesss. As time passes, these strains become stronger, some become weaker, and there are more of them.

God doesn't need Marys seed to conceive Jesus in her womb, he has created man and woman out of no seed (Adam and Eve) yet who knows how he did it.

If Jesus couldn't sin then the whole bit about Him being sinless would just be a joke. He would apparently have had no choice, no free will, other than to be sinless. So, it would be no big deal to Him. He could just waltz through life untouched, and untouchable, the Teflon Messiah.

Adam was sinless before the fall yet he felt what it was like to be tempted. He could feel temptation, various carnal urges etc... but was not predisposed to acting upon them via a sin nature.
We must remember Jesus is God. God in the flesh. God is limited by his own nature. He cannot sin.

Example: God cannot and does not lie because that would be sinning.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.

Hebrews 6:18 it is impossible for God to lie.

Seems like we are reading a bunch of stuff in that is not in the text just to make scripture match up with what we think we already know, IMHO.

Yes, agreed, sometimes that happens

 

[webdog]

The first Adam was of the earth, earthy (dusty and dirty, soil-like); the second Adam was the Lord from heaven.

From this verse, it would appear Christ's flesh was not the same as ours... even though it was flesh.

This sounds agnostic. Christ's flesh was 100% human...like ours.

If we sin because we are sinners, Adam was created a sinner, and God's creation was flawed from the beginning.

 

[Amy.G]

The first Adam was of the earth, earthy (dusty and dirty, soil-like); the second Adam was the Lord from heaven.

From this verse, it would appear Christ's flesh was not the same as ours... even though it was flesh.

I disagree. Christ's body was the same as ours, or He couldn't be fully human.

You still didn't answer, did Adam sin because he was a sinner?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

This sounds agnostic. Christ's flesh was 100% human...like ours.

If we sin because we are sinners, Adam was created a sinner, and God's creation was flawed from the beginning.

Not agnostic at all. Christ was born in the flesh as Scripture clearly states. But Scripture does not say He was born like the first Adam... from the earth.

And yet, we do know the virgin Mary, who was of the earth, conceived 'that holy thing' in her womb and bare a son into the world as the prophet Isaiah foretold. But not just a son, but the Son of almighty God.

We do sin because we are sinners. Because of Adam's disobedience, the nature to sin was passed down to mankind. Man is born a sinner, and because of this, man sins.

 

[Amy.G]

Did Adam sin because he was a sinner?

Jesus was fully God because God was/is His Father.

He was fully human because He was born of a woman.

His body was no different than ours.