They would be of Israel physically but cut off and therefore not part of Israel spiritually. Believing Jews would be reattached to spiritual Israel (the true Israel that is the actual heir to God's promises).
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Jesus is Israel. How so?
- Thread starter 1689Dave
- Start date
They would be of Israel physically but cut off and therefore not part of Israel spiritually. Believing Jews would be reattached to spiritual Israel (the true Israel that is the actual heir to God's promises).
There are physical Jews born from Abraham, and spiritual Jews are those who received Jesus as Lord!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Doesn't the Roman Catholic Church teach A-millennialism?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Precisely...not all spiritual Israel, the "Israel of God".
Dave G
Well-Known Member
There's a nation today, Dave.
They are physically residing in the land of their forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The physical descendants of Jacob are alive and well.
I almost agree with your entire post, excellent insight. I would rewrite your sentence above like this, "If he understood "all" Israel to consist only of believers at this point, then his statement of the partial blindness of "bloodline Israel" would make [snip] sense.
Jesus is Israel
I just taught the second Servant Song of Isaiah last week.
The question in each of the servant songs is: Who is the un-named servant?
49 Listen to me, O coastlands,
and give attention, you peoples from afar.
The Lord called me from the womb,
from the body of my mother he named my name.
2 He made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me a polished arrow;
in his quiver he hid me away.
3 And he said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
4 But I said, “I have labored in vain;
I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity;
yet surely my right is with the Lord,
and my recompense with my God.”
5 And now the Lord says,
he who formed me from the womb to be his servant,
to bring Jacob back to him;
and that Israel might be gathered to him—
for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord,
and my God has become my strength—
6 he says:
“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”
**********************************
What is the servant’s double task? – 1) to bring Israel back to God, and 2) to be the Lord’s salvation to the world!
The nation "Israel" therefore could not be the servant, they needed to be brought back.
Rob
I just taught the second Servant Song of Isaiah last week.
The question in each of the servant songs is: Who is the un-named servant?
49 Listen to me, O coastlands,
and give attention, you peoples from afar.
The Lord called me from the womb,
from the body of my mother he named my name.
2 He made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me a polished arrow;
in his quiver he hid me away.
3 And he said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
4 But I said, “I have labored in vain;
I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity;
yet surely my right is with the Lord,
and my recompense with my God.”
5 And now the Lord says,
he who formed me from the womb to be his servant,
to bring Jacob back to him;
and that Israel might be gathered to him—
for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord,
and my God has become my strength—
6 he says:
“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”
**********************************
What is the servant’s double task? – 1) to bring Israel back to God, and 2) to be the Lord’s salvation to the world!
The nation "Israel" therefore could not be the servant, they needed to be brought back.
The servant is best described as an Ideal Israel, one who is all that God intended Israel to be, in contrast to exiled Israel, which failed to fulfill God’s purposes. (Rydelnik p. 946)
…exiled Israel is incapable of carrying out its servant task without the new beginning accomplished through another divinely chosen individual like the patriarch, a second, or ideal, Israel
Willem VanGemeren, ed., New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1997), 1196.
…exiled Israel is incapable of carrying out its servant task without the new beginning accomplished through another divinely chosen individual like the patriarch, a second, or ideal, Israel
Willem VanGemeren, ed., New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1997), 1196.
Jesus himself was the Ideal Israel, he fulfilled the role God intended for the nation of Israel.
The Apostle Matthew followed this this interpretation when he noted the prophecy in Matthew 2:15b
"This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, 'Out of Egypt I called my son.”'
The servant songs culminate in Isaiah 52-53 , unmistakably Jesus Christ.
The Apostle Matthew followed this this interpretation when he noted the prophecy in Matthew 2:15b
"This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, 'Out of Egypt I called my son.”'
The servant songs culminate in Isaiah 52-53 , unmistakably Jesus Christ.
Rob
The New Testament is amazingly missing any thing about "national Israel" being restored if indeed that's God's plan. In some of the most awful exegesis imaginable, some people claim the fig tree mentioned in the Olivet sermon is symbolic of Israel being restored. But, it's completely pointless for God to restore national Israel. National Israel was nothing but a precursor to Jesus.
That's simply wrong. The history of the Jews proves they are really Israelis. Scripture is plain that God will restore both Israel & Judah as one nation again.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
This is not true. The only people linked to old Israel will be reunited to Biblical Israel through faith in Christ.
“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romans 11:23 (KJV 1900)
Israel as a nation-state? I'd agree with you.
But Israel as an entity of some sort? That's another matter. God's covenants were with Israel, and Gentiles are grafted into the benefits of the New Covenant.
The essential argument is that God has not broken his covenant with Israel. Paul's discourse in Romans 9, 10, and 11 fleshes out why Israel has in fact not been rejected entirely--as there is a believing remnant--the true Israel, with which the covenant of God continues, unbroken. Gentiles can be grafted into this covenant, but they are not one of the original parties to the covenant.
Romans 11:25-32 (ESV):
(especially verse 30)
I don't take a classical dispensational view of the church as a parenthesis sandwiched between God's dispensations of working with Israel. I think that has no merit because the New Covenant, at least from what I see, is the "end game." And it's not two New Covenants--just the one, made to Israel, into which Gentile believers are grafted.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 (ESV):
The original terms of the New Covenant indicate that God is making it with Israel/Judah, and it is not a covenant like the older covenants made with national Israel that included benefits for the nation as a whole without necessarily depending on the faith of every individual Israelite.
But the New Covenant is different---God is the one doing the work unilaterally, and ALL parties to the covenant with God will know God and will have their sins forgiven.
Paul's Romans 9-11 argument lines up with the New Covenant terms. God is not breaking faith with Israel because unbelieving Israelites had no legitimate claim to the benefits of the New Covenant. Because the terms of the New Covenant involve faith and forgiveness for all covenant parties, the Israelites who believe in the Messiah and have forgiveness of their sins are the "true" Israel in view here.
If God simply canceled the New Covenant without fulfilling the terms he placed upon himself, he would be breaking faith with Israel (and contradicting himself), which would create major credibility problems. However, he did NOT break faith, as Paul's discourse explains.
God, however, is able to expand the New Covenant to bring believing Gentiles into the covenant without breaking faith with Israel. God saves them, grafts them into the true Israel, and the people of God are unified as one group.
But in "legal" terms, all of this hinges on the continuity of Israel's existence (not replacement). That being said, I want to be clear that I do not see biblical justification to argue that future covenantal benefits remain "due" to Israel that Gentile Christians will not inherit. In Christ, the Israel/Gentile distinction no longer exists, as Gentile believers are now parties to the New Covenant by virtue of being grafted into the covenant with Israel.
MMRRPP ! WRONG !
Apparently, you don't study either Scripture nor history too closely.The Jews of today are part of the descendants of Jacob.
Isaiah 11:11-12 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
God has started bringing the Jews back to their land, despite their unbelief. But a little less than half the world's Jews are now in Israel. And He hasn't started retiurning the other Israelis at all yet, nor has He cleansed them, of course. But it's coming !
ex4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Isaiah 49 King James Version (KJV)
49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Mt2
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Isaiah 49 King James Version (KJV)
49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Mt2
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” Romans 9:8 (KJV 1900)
“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)
So Isaiah , Ezekiel, & Jeremiah wrote fiction?
There's SPIRITUAL Israel & PHYSICAL Israel. They're different entities, tho any physical Israeli can become a Spiritual Israeli by becoming a Christian.
I don't understand why that plain, simple TRUTH hasn't registered with you unless some cult has led you astray. If you're a Baptist, you sure don't write like one.
There's SPIRITUAL Israel & PHYSICAL Israel. They're different entities, tho any physical Israeli can become a Spiritual Israeli by becoming a Christian.
I don't understand why that plain, simple TRUTH hasn't registered with you unless some cult has led you astray. If you're a Baptist, you sure don't write like one.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You need to define OT terms using NT definitions. Israel = Believers in Christ, not those who exist solely because of their rejection and hatred of him = today's so called "Israel".
How silly. Israel is ISRAEL. The physical Israelis still exist.
Someone has sure led you astray. Remember, the 144K special witnesses during the trib will be literal Israelis.
Just because most aren't Christians now, doesn't mean they're not physical Israelis. To say otherwise is just plain ignorance.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” Romans 9:8 (KJV 1900)
“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)
Your "replacement theology" is simply false. While you claim to be a baptist, you're showing us you're just another apostate pushing a false doctrine.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You are assuming Dispensationalism circa 1800s is standard Baptist belief. "God having two peoples". But Baptists have always held he has only one people. This would be Israel into which believing gentiles are grafted, and the unbelieving Jews removed.