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Jesus is NOT Michael !

robycop3

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
On a thread soon to be closed, there's a gent who's a 7th day adventist who's vehemently arguing that Jesus is the archangel Michael. (This false belief is also held by the JWs as well.) So, let's look at what the final earthly arbiter God gave us, SCRIPTURE, says about this.

Here's the angel Gabriel speaking to Daniel:The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia…. But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince. (Dan. 10:13, 21)

Any mention of JESUS here? Now, is Jesus "one of the chief princes", or is He the CHIEF PRINCE? And was Michael the Creator? In Colossians 1, Paul was clearly speaking of JESUS. And he wrote this, among other things:Col. 1: 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

A "power" must have someone to wield it, so is Michael a power? Is he part of a throne? If so, he was created by Jesus !

And in Hebrews 1, God says,[/color=red] 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[/color]

Is Michael an angel? If so, he worships Jesus !

And the clincher comes from Jude 9 9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” BUT, IN JOHN 8:44, JESUS SAYS:
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Yes, JESUS made "railing accusations" against Satan because He has authority to do so, while Michael does not, which clearly shows Jesus & Michael are separate beings, with Jesus being superior. CLEARLY, THE JABRONEY FALSE WITLESSES & SEVEN-DAY-ADLIBBERS ARE WRONG, as clearly proven by SCRIPTURE, not the words of men !
 
pythons

pythons

Member
Some of the stronger arguments against the "Jesus is Michael the archangel" SDA teaching can be found between the lines of Chapter 10 in the Book of Daniel. It's significant and devastating to the SDA position.

The Chapter starts out by saying that Daniel had been fasting for 21 days and further explains that on day ONE of Daniel's fast God ordered Daniel's angel to go to him and deliver a message. The message however wasn't delivered because the Prince of Persia stood against Daniel's angel for a full 3 weeks.

Daniel's angel was withheld from getting to Daniel by a Demon archangel who was the Patron of Persia - also called one of the Princes. On the 21st day Michael, one of other PRINCES comes to the aid of Daniel's angel and is able to keep the demon busy enough to allow Daniel's angel to deliver the angel to Daniel - Daniel's angel then tells Daniel that he's going to go back and HELP MICHAEL and that;

"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. So Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia,a]'>[a] 14 and have come to help you understand what is to happen to your people at the end of days." Daniel 10, 13

"Then he said, ‘Do you know why I have come to you? Now I must return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I am through with him, the prince of Greece will come. But I am to tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth. There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince." Daniel 10, 20

Michael was ONE OF other Chief Princes [ members of the same rank ] and if Michael is Jesus this defaults into the powers of darkness being EQUALLY powerful to God. If, as SDA's boast - that Michael was the name of the pre-Incarnate Christ (God the Son) and being THE CREATOR of the Prince of Persia (evil archangel helping Perisa) God needed the help of another angel should tell ya all you need to know about their doctrine.

The hard core SDA's are stuck with this because they are bound to defend Ellen White as a prophet in the canonical sense - if they concede she was wrong about Christ previously existing as Michael the archangel who got into a squabble with Luicifer the archangel people who logically say WHAT ELSE did she get horrifically wrong?

Another common argument you hear SDA's make is that Jesus was understood to be "the angel of the Lord" and because Michael the archangel did the will of God and Michael was Jesus then Jesus was the angel of the Lord. This is utter hogwash.

"But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 1, 20

Is that Jesus, above, speaking about Himself??? I think not.

"And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it." Matthew 28, 2

Was that Jesus, above, informing them He had risen, in the body of something else????

I purchased an ancient copy of "The Great Controversy" by Ellen White and on the front cover is Jesus with flapping WINGS holding a chain. This was the SDA understanding of Jesus, a winged arch angel.
 
M

Mike Evans

New Member
Hi. There is a Baptist only thread looking at this issue, as many popular, even idolised ministers have taught this doctrine.
The word ANGEL in both Hebrew and Greek simply means 'messenger'. When that messenger is not named and behaves like deity in the OT, it is obviously a pre-incarnate manifeststion of Christ.
Only two angels are named in scripture: Gabriel and Michael (apart from Heylel, Satan's name in Hebrew before his fall). Michael means 'who is like God'. Jesus is not "like God" but IS God. That alone should settle this issue. Famous preachers are men who can be wrong and preach Another Christ unwittingly.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Active Member
I heard a SDA make the claim that the meaning of Michael is (Who is like God), the archangel (chief of the Angels) and went on to say that the proper meaning of this name in the scripture context is, "Chief of the princes who is as God" and that the meaning here is not one of the Princes, but the Chief of the princes who is as God.

I have a Dictionary of Bible names and it does not read, "Who is like God" (minus the question mark) for Michael, as if Michael is "as" God (as SDA's claim) but "Who is like God?" *Notice the question mark. A simple SDA twist and you have a whole different meaning! The answer to this rhetorical question is no one is like God.

Now the name Micah also means "Who is like God?" or "Who is like Jehovah?" Now should we also twist that to read, "Who is like God/Jehovah" (and leave out the question mark) to teach that Micah is "as" God/Jehovah? It just goes to show you the deceitfulness that SDA's will resort to in order to try and win their case at all costs!
 
3rdAngel

3rdAngel

Member
[QUOTE="robycop3, post: 2526202, member: 5296"]On a thread soon to be closed, there's a gent who's a 7th day adventist who's vehemently arguing that Jesus is the archangel Michael. (This false belief is also held by the JWs as well.) So, let's look at what the final earthly arbiter God gave us, SCRIPTURE, says about this.

Here's the angel Gabriel speaking to Daniel:The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia…. But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince. (Dan. 10:13, 21)

Any mention of JESUS here? Now, is Jesus "one of the chief princes", or is He the CHIEF PRINCE? And was Michael the Creator? In Colossians 1, Paul was clearly speaking of JESUS. And he wrote this, among other things:Col. 1: 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

A "power" must have someone to wield it, so is Michael a power? Is he part of a throne? If so, he was created by Jesus !

And in Hebrews 1, God says,[/color=red] 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Is Michael an angel? If so, he worships Jesus !

And the clincher comes from Jude 9 9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” BUT, IN JOHN 8:44, JESUS SAYS:
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.[/COLOR]

Yes, JESUS made "railing accusations" against Satan because He has authority to do so, while Michael does not, which clearly shows Jesus & Michael are separate beings, with Jesus being superior. CLEARLY, THE JABRONEY FALSE WITLESSES & SEVEN-DAY-ADLIBBERS ARE WRONG, as clearly proven by SCRIPTURE, not the words of men !
Click to expand...

Hi brother, thanks for your thread. I think I know the person you are talking about in your OP. However I only know him as a very Godly gentleman that knows the Word of God very well and is very careful in his research into the historical records.

I only want to point out this simple fact in which it seems you are confused. This brother (and I know him) does not believe in any way, shape or form the same as the JW'S that JESUS is a created being and neither do SDA's so this is simply misinformation on your behalf.

So what is it that the SDA's and my friend believes? I will tell you if your interested.

Unlike the Jehovah’s Witnesses they do not believe Michael is a literal created angel! They believe Michael the Archangel represents Christ as the Son of God for biblical reasons which I will outline below.

As pointed out from someone else in this thread JESUS represented as Michael the ArchAngel was a common view amonst those of the reformation period and the reason for this is not that JESUS is a created angel, but because according to the Hebrew and Greek word meanings Michael means "who is like unto God?"; arch; "Cheif" and angels; "messengers" represents JESUS as the Son of God as Cheif of the messengers to manklnd!

Now were does this belief come from? It comes from the Word of God and the Word of God alone.

Let's see how....

It came about from an evaluation of the Hebrew and Greek "Michael the archangel" JUDE 1:9; DANIEL 10:21; 1 THESSALONIANS 4:16. It is not saying that Michael the archangel is a litteral created winged angel and never has. This is something you are reading into what is being said that is not being said.

Here is the Hebrew word meaning for the reasoning above...

MICHAEL;מיכאל ; mı̂ykâ'êl From H4310 and (the prefixed derivation from) H3588 and H410; who (is) like God ?; Mikael, the name of an archangel and of nine Israelites: - Michael.

ANGEL; מלאך; mal'âk; From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

ARCHANGEL; ἀρχάγγελος; archaggelos From G757 and G32; a chief angel: - archangel.

INTERPREATION OF THE MEANING OF MICHAEL THE ARCH ANGEL FROM THE EARLY REFORMERS FROM THE BIBLE?

JESUS IS LIKE UNTO GOD AND THE CHIEF MESSENGER TO MANKIND.

Wheather we agree or disagree with the early reformers does not seem like a salvation issue in my view and is simply a distraction. I personally believe the scriptures support the above view and do not have a problem with it.

Hope this helps the confusion and misinformation being spread here.
 
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3rdAngel

3rdAngel

Member
Jerome said:
Well, well, look what I found in the Reformed's 'Geneva Bible'...


View attachment 3184
Click to expand...


Nice find and good example. There is also a big list of protestant reformers in wiki listed on this subject.

In relation to the text being quoted in your photo...

The literal HEBREW from the HEBREW lexicon is written this way...... "to help me came chief of the princes Michael - Margin, "the first." That is, the first in rank of the "princes," or the angels.

In other words, Michael (Who is like God?), the archangel (chief of the messengers)." The proper meaning of this name (מיכאל mı̂ykâ'êl) in the scripture context is, "Chief of the princes who is as God?"

So the meaning here is not one of the Princes but the Chief of the princes who is as God? Who is as God? JESUS!

This is also demonstrated here in the Youngs literal translation of the Hebrew...

Young's Literal Translation 'And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia

Might leave this thread for now, as I do not really think it is worth much time but wish everyone all the best as you seek JESUS through his Word
 
Scarlett O.

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
robycop3 said:
Just another man's opinion, not Scripture itself. Again, whoever holds the opinion that Jesus is Michael is simply WRONG ! As a Baptist, you should know that.
Click to expand...

No, they are not just wrong. They are deceived by the Father of Lies into believing that Jesus Christ has no part of the God head, is merely a created being and not the Creator, and has no deity in him.

This describes one who is NOT qualified to die on a cross for mankind.

The devil laughs with glee when we make either [1] make Michael a God or [2] make Jesus unqualified for the cross.

And that's the foundation of the lie.
 
Jerome

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Check out what SBTS Senior Professor and Founders board member Tom Nettles teaches on this:

"Michael is the name given to the Son of God in his role of overcoming the rebellious adversary of God’s glory and God’s people." —Tom Nettles

Founders Ministries • Tom Nettles • Bible Study • Christ Saves the Church

"Tom Nettles...most recently served as the Professor of Historical Theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary....he taught at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary. Along with numerous journal articles and scholarly papers, Dr. Nettles is the author and editor of nine books. Among his books are By His Grace and For His Glory; Baptists and the Bible, which he co-authored with L. Russ Bush; Why I Am a Baptist; James Petigru Boyce: A Southern Baptist Statesman; and Living by Revealed Truth: The Life and Pastoral Theology of Charles Spurgeon."
 
Walter

Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
3rdAngel said:
Hi brother, thanks for your thread. I think I know the person you are talking about in your OP. However I only know him as a very Godly gentleman that knows the Word of God very well and is very careful in his research into the historical records.

I only want to point out this simple fact in which it seems you are confused. This brother (and I know him) does not believe in any way, shape or form the same as the JW'S that JESUS is a created being and neither do SDA's so this is simply misinformation on your behalf.

So what is it that the SDA's and my friend believes? I will tell you if your interested.

Unlike the Jehovah’s Witnesses they do not believe Michael is a literal created angel! They believe Michael the Archangel represents Christ as the Son of God for biblical reasons which I will outline below.

As pointed out from someone else in this thread JESUS represented as Michael the ArchAngel was a common view amonst those of the reformation period and the reason for this is not that JESUS is a created angel, but because according to the Hebrew and Greek word meanings Michael means "who is like unto God?"; arch; "Cheif" and angels; "messengers" represents JESUS as the Son of God as Cheif of the messengers to manklnd!

Now were does this belief come from? It comes from the Word of God and the Word of God alone.

Let's see how....

It came about from an evaluation of the Hebrew and Greek "Michael the archangel" JUDE 1:9; DANIEL 10:21; 1 THESSALONIANS 4:16. It is not saying that Michael the archangel is a litteral created winged angel and never has. This is something you are reading into what is being said that is not being said.

Here is the Hebrew word meaning for the reasoning above...

MICHAEL;מיכאל ; mı̂ykâ'êl From H4310 and (the prefixed derivation from) H3588 and H410; who (is) like God ?; Mikael, the name of an archangel and of nine Israelites: - Michael.

ANGEL; מלאך; mal'âk; From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

ARCHANGEL; ἀρχάγγελος; archaggelos From G757 and G32; a chief angel: - archangel.

INTERPREATION OF THE MEANING OF MICHAEL THE ARCH ANGEL FROM THE EARLY REFORMERS FROM THE BIBLE?

JESUS IS LIKE UNTO GOD AND THE CHIEF MESSENGER TO MANKIND.

Wheather we agree or disagree with the early reformers does not seem like a salvation issue in my view and is simply a distraction. I personally believe the scriptures support the above view and do not have a problem with it.

Hope this helps the confusion and misinformation being spread here.
Click to expand...


…The Bible Says that Jesus is Not an Angel

Calling Michael the archangel in Jude 1:9 doesn’t prove that Michael is the only archangel any more than calling Sonic the Hedgehog proves he is the only hedgehog. Neither does describing Jesus as descending “with an archangel’s voice” require us to conclude that he is an archangel. (The same verse also says that Jesus will descend with God’s trumpet, but that doesn’t mean Jesus is a trumpet.) It only means that Jesus’ voice will have the quality of an archangel’s voice, or that he will be accompanied by angels who will shout for him.

Besides, the Bible explicitly teaches that Jesus is superior to all the angels, including the archangels. Hebrews 1:4–6 says Jesus has:

“become as much superior to angels as the name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs. For to what angel did God ever say, “Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Angels don’t worship other angels; they worship only God.

If SDA's presenting another Christ in the form of Michael the Archangel being Jesus wasn't enough to land the Adventist church on the 'cult' list, their slide into Molech worship (which you won't address) that goes on day in and day out in their Adventists hospitals and abortion mills is a stench in the Lord's nostrils. An SDA who posted on the BB for years was honest enough to admit that the Adventist church needed to repent of it's pro-choice position. Other SDA's condemn the official SDA guidelines which make it clear that the modern day Adventist teaching is pro-choice.and say that the teaching much change as 'the Remnant Church' must become pro-life again or it can no longer claim to be 'The Remnant Church'.
 
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L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
If Jesus was a created Angel, we have no hope of salvation.

God did not send a created being to die for other created beings

I seems Michael had certain duties involving Israel, just as Gabriel

He rebukes in the name of the Lord, so not Jesus
 
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3rdAngel

3rdAngel

Member
loDebar said:
If Jesus was a created Angel, we have no hope of salvation.

God did not send a created being to die for other created beings

I seems Michael had certain duties involving Israel, just as Gabriel

He rebukes in the name of the Lord, so not Jesus
Click to expand...

Goodness please read post # 8 and post # 9. JESUS IS NOT A CREATED BEING! JESUS IS GOD! HE IS THE GOD THAT CREATED HEAVEN AND EARTH! The OP and some others here are spreading misinformation and lies. NONE ARE SAYING THAT JESUS IS A CREATED BEING. HE IS GOD and this was also the view of those in the early reformation and even Baptists!
 
3rdAngel

3rdAngel

Member
Walter said:
…The Bible Says that Jesus is Not an Angel

Calling Michael the archangel in Jude 1:9 doesn’t prove that Michael is the only archangel any more than calling Sonic the Hedgehog proves he is the only hedgehog. Neither does describing Jesus as descending “with an archangel’s voice” require us to conclude that he is an archangel. (The same verse also says that Jesus will descend with God’s trumpet, but that doesn’t mean Jesus is a trumpet.) It only means that Jesus’ voice will have the quality of an archangel’s voice, or that he will be accompanied by angels who will shout for him.

Besides, the Bible explicitly teaches that Jesus is superior to all the angels, including the archangels. Hebrews 1:4–6 says Jesus has:

“become as much superior to angels as the name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs. For to what angel did God ever say, “Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Angels don’t worship other angels; they worship only God.

If SDA's presenting another Christ in the form of Michael the Archangel being Jesus wasn't enough to land the Adventist church on the 'cult' list, their slide into Molech worship (which you won't address) that goes on day in and day out in their Adventists hospitals and abortion mills is a stench in the Lord's nostrils. An SDA who posted on the BB for years was honest enough to admit that the Adventist church needed to repent of it's pro-choice position. Other SDA's condemn the official SDA guidelines which make it clear that the modern day Adventist teaching is pro-choice.and say that the teaching much change as 'the Remnant Church' must become pro-life again or it can no longer claim to be 'The Remnant Church'.
Click to expand...

You really did not read what you are responding to did you? Sadly your post is simply misinformation and slander. Please read posts # 8 and post # 9. NO. ONE IS SAYING THAT JESUS IS A LITERAL CREATED ANGEL! JESUS IS GOD! This view comes from the literal HEBREW and GREEK word meanings and which was also the view of the early reformers.
 
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L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
3rdAngel said:
Goodness please read post # 8 and post # 9. JESUS IS NOT A CREATED BEING! JESUS IS GOD! HE IS THE GOD THAT CREATED HEAVEN AND EARTH! The OP and some others here are spreading misinformation and lies. NONE ARE SAYING THAT JESUS IS A CREATED BEING. HE IS GOD and this was also the view of those in the early reformation and even Baptists!
Click to expand...
well at least you know what your posts are saying

There may be incarnate "angel of the Lord " mentioned, but most are not God,
 
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