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Jesus kept the Law
- Thread starter Claudia_T
- Start date
I see the Law (so-called ten commandments) as a mirror reflecting God's standard. I look into that mirror and always come up short. It is a light directing man toward God. It was never intended as a set of rules to be obeyed or disobeyed, and certainly plays no part in man's redemption or even his sanctification, which is the act of the Holy Spirit.
In this sense Jesus did not dismantle the "law" but rather was the embodiment of the "law" in that He was God in the flesh.
Cheers,
Jim
In this sense Jesus did not dismantle the "law" but rather was the embodiment of the "law" in that He was God in the flesh.
Cheers,
Jim
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Long post! Everybody duck!
The pre-cross Commandments of Christ the Creator were to be kept by Christ’s followers.
John 14:15 ”If you love Me keep My commandments”
These are the Words of Christ the Creator as He quotes from the 2nd commandment.
But what exactly did these pre-cross words of Christ “mean” to His Jewish followers – the “primary audience” that exegesis would have us consider?
Lets see if we can discover that by looking at some more statements found in God’s Word.
Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.
Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
Is it any wonder that Paul writes
God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".
Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)
The pre-cross Commandments of Christ the Creator were to be kept by Christ’s followers.
John 14:15 ”If you love Me keep My commandments”
These are the Words of Christ the Creator as He quotes from the 2nd commandment.
But what exactly did these pre-cross words of Christ “mean” to His Jewish followers – the “primary audience” that exegesis would have us consider?
Lets see if we can discover that by looking at some more statements found in God’s Word.
Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.
Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --
So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.
Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.
Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.
Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.
Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –
Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)
Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?
Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’s
As for Law and Grace -- Pauls words in Romans 2:13-16 come to mind relative to "justification".
Here the "New Covenant" promise of the "Law written on the heart" is clearly seen.
Is it any wonder that Paul writes
And James 2 tells us to live and act as those "Who are to be judged by God's Law of Liberty".
God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".
Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Now ... I will use that post above as a reference for the rest of the thread.
Exercise for the reader -
Take the position "I pay no attention to the commandments because as a saved person they don't apply to me" - and go through that post above (reading just the bold type if you wish) - what do you get?
Exercise #2 for the reader
Take the position "My tradition tells me that I NEED to REDEFINE the term Commandments pre-cross vs Post-Cross as I read the Bible so any reference to them in Matthew is PRE-Cross and that in James is post cross as needed by my tradition.".
Then go through the post above reading the bold type -- how much "exegesis" did you do?
In Christ,
Bob
Exercise for the reader -
Take the position "I pay no attention to the commandments because as a saved person they don't apply to me" - and go through that post above (reading just the bold type if you wish) - what do you get?
Exercise #2 for the reader
Take the position "My tradition tells me that I NEED to REDEFINE the term Commandments pre-cross vs Post-Cross as I read the Bible so any reference to them in Matthew is PRE-Cross and that in James is post cross as needed by my tradition.".
Then go through the post above reading the bold type -- how much "exegesis" did you do?
In Christ,
Bob
And do you not understand, my friend-- or enemy; I'll take either characterization-- that circumcision, accoridng to the LAW, was physical, but spiritual. If the Israelites had refused that when Moses brought the word to them, saying they are going to do it spiritually, would that have done the requirement?
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Are you saying Jesus broke God's laws? If so, please give an example.</font>[/QUOTE]Does anyone read an entire line before pouncing on what they want to believe a person is posting?
SMM
Brother Bob
New Member
If you look in the mirror and the Law is still there excusing or accusing then its still doing its job.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. Gentiles were never required to be circumcised in OT or NT!
#2. In Acts 15 we see the NT church giving out some instruction when the debate over circumcision comes up. In Acts 16 we SEE PAUL MAKING Timothy BE CIRCUMCISED!
#3. In Acts 21 we see Paul argue that HE NEVER goes against the teachings of scripture when it comes to the Jews. He leaves it THE SAME as he reads it!!
In Romans 2 Paul argues that ALL are to be "circumcised in heart" and that ONLY THOSE who ARE - are true Israel both Jew and Gentile.
But when it comes to the requirement of the Law which was that JEWS (not MANKIND) were to be circumcised - he MAINTAINS that order EVEN in the NT!
How "surprising" eh?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I saw a non-SDA pastor once exegeting through Acts 21 and boy did he get stuck on that point!! He could not believe that Paul was going to ILLUSTRATE the point that HE WAS NOT teaching that the saints should abolish/ignore/break the scriptures of the OT when it came to the Law of Moses!!
He said "Wait a minute! That is THE VERY THING PAUL IS doing according to my view! Here Paul is going to great lengths in Acts 21 that this is NOT what he is doing and that those Jews who DO accuse him of doing it - are falsely accusing him!!" --
I applaud him for being willing to admit that his own tradition and bias did not allow him to make sense of the chapter!
In Christ,
Bob
He said "Wait a minute! That is THE VERY THING PAUL IS doing according to my view! Here Paul is going to great lengths in Acts 21 that this is NOT what he is doing and that those Jews who DO accuse him of doing it - are falsely accusing him!!" --
I applaud him for being willing to admit that his own tradition and bias did not allow him to make sense of the chapter!
In Christ,
Bob
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Interesting point...
SMM
Interesting point...
SMM
1Cor:7:19: Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
in other words, it is the keeping of the commandments that is now what's important.
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4.
ummmm what LAW do we think he is talking about?
Jesus fulfilled the Law, not in order that we wouldnt do the same
but that we would be ENABLED to do the same. Through faith, by His power...
1Jn:2:6: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Jesus came to redeem us from sin, not to leave us wallowing in it.
in other words, it is the keeping of the commandments that is now what's important.
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4.
ummmm what LAW do we think he is talking about?
Jesus fulfilled the Law, not in order that we wouldnt do the same
1Jn:2:6: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Jesus came to redeem us from sin, not to leave us wallowing in it.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
First these were Gentile believers. What Commandments of God were delivered to them? Pray tell.
Second, context, context, context...
1 Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1 Corinthians 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
If a person was a Jew when they came to faith they are not to stop being a Jew...
If they were a gentile they were not to stop being a Gentile...
Again, what Commandments of God were delivered to the Gentile Church at Corinth?
You haven't specified if Paul is talking about...
The Law of Moses
Rabbinic Law
The Ten Commandments
And, when they, if applicable, were delivered to the Gentile Church...
SMM
Im sorry but I dont subscribe to this idea that every time the Bible talks about keeping the commandments it applies to someone else but every time the Bible talks about grace then it applies to me.
And then every time Jesus says something I like it applies to me but every time He asks us to actually DO something, it applies to the Jews.
I just do not buy that nonsense.
And then every time Jesus says something I like it applies to me but every time He asks us to actually DO something, it applies to the Jews.
I just do not buy that nonsense.
...and everytime I see "commandments", it happens to be the ones I believe in keeping, yet everytinme there is s change in practice from the Old Covenant, or laws we are freed from, it is the commandments I don't keep that are "abolished".
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Your illustration of the distinction between "circumcision" and "the commandments of God" only illustrates this in action. Once again, circumcision is spiritually fulfilled in having our ears and hearts "circumcized". So once again, "the commandments", are the universal laws, plus others being taught, such as what Paul had just mentioned in the 1 Cor. passage in v.10.
because, people break every commandment that God gives. They ALl became "issues".
You're kidding! You have not even read the NT enough to be able to make such a claim? Gal.5:20, 1 Thess.1:9, 1 Peter 4:3 (condemned in gentiles' past along with other sins; gentiles never condemned for not keeping sabbath) 1 John 5:21, Rev.2:14, 20, 9:20, 21:8, 22:15, 1 Cor. 5:11, 6:9, 10:7, 14, 12:2, 2 Cor.6:16
What's even more flimsy is "It's not mentioned much because all were keeping it unanimously". Every other command was being broken, and required instruction, though. Hebrews shows the spiritual application of the Sabbath as spiritual rest in Jesus. Compare that to all the direct condemnations of idolatry you claimed were not there.
Basically, whichever comes first. TILL heaven and earth pass. In the meantime, "all" CAN be fulfilled, in the context of the institution of the New Covenant. Also, I have seen that even "heaven and earth" can be symbols of the Old Covenant anyway.
Read the rest of the passage.
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Your illustration of the distinction between "circumcision" and "the commandments of God" only illustrates this in action. Once again, circumcision is spiritually fulfilled in having our ears and hearts "circumcized". So once again, "the commandments", are the universal laws, plus others being taught, such as what Paul had just mentioned in the 1 Cor. passage in v.10.
20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
20:7 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless
that takes his name in vain.
Is this what you mean?
First of all, that's part of the second commandment, not the third, which begins right after it.
And it's not a QUOTE. It's a separate statement that uses some of the same words (just like Rev.14:7). Else, is Luke 18:2 a quote of Deut.25:18?
The ritual and ceremony of Mose's law pointed forward to Christ's sacrifice, and when He died, this all came to an end.
Galatians 3:
16: Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
19: Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
But the 10 Commandment Law (God's Law written in stone by His own finger) "stand fast forever and ever" Psalm 111:8
That there are two laws is made clear
Daniel 9:10,11
10: Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
11: Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
Galatians 3:
16: Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
19: Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
But the 10 Commandment Law (God's Law written in stone by His own finger) "stand fast forever and ever" Psalm 111:8
That there are two laws is made clear
Daniel 9:10,11
10: Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
11: Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
Very true of that command and many others the NT does not require of believers.
Out of deference to the Jews, it says; not because Paul or Timothy would be threatened by God with death, as with Moses and his son.
Galatians 2:14 -- But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
Now you're a Jehovah's Witness/Church of Christ crossbreed, citing the location of a scripture which does not say what you claim =>
Psalm 111:7-8 -- The works of His hands are truth and justice; All His precepts are sure. They are upheld forever and ever; They are performed in truth and uprightness.
Nothing here is limited to "10 Commandment Law" (the number of which is man's own analysis thereof), but "all his precepts." Then Paul and others make it plain that NT believers are not obligated to circumcision, dietary laws, observing days or seasons or new moons... but be convinced in one's own mind and carry out that conviction. If the Bible you read says in that verse '10 Commandment Law' to the exclusion of other laws or precepts, then you might as well wipe you snotty nose on it.