Jesus on the cross?

[percho]

Bro. OB,

First off, thanks for taking the time to post in this thread....I really appreciate it!! :thumbs:

I think that we are in agreement(I mean all that have posted in this thread) with a lot of what has been posted. But when they state God does "all things", then "all things" would include Him slaughtering His Son Himself, and not "wicked men". Did God kill Jesus or did God allow these wicked men to do it?? I know that they did not take His life, because He freely gave it. But for Him to freely give His life for us, He did have to die. So, the question I want to ask all of y'all who will post in this thread is this:

Did God kill Jesus, or did God allow these wicked men to do it??

i am I AM's!!

Willis

God, that is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh gave his life a ransom for many.

Now let me ask. Did the Word who as the Word of this is said, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" including I assume having eternal life give up being eternal including life when this is said of him? But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (five translations emptied himself) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Which brings about the purpose for this statement. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given (BY resurrection) to the Son to have life in himself;

If God killed him did God give him life again?

New thread maybe?

 

[convicted1]

God, that is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh gave his life a ransom for many.

Thanks Brother for the response!! :thumbs:

But, did God kill Jesus Himself??? OR


Did, God allow these wicked men to crucify Jesus??

You know that God does "all things"......now is killing His own Son Himself included in "all things"? I am not accusing you of believing "all things" like some on here have purported, either.

I know that God gave His Son to be a ransom for all. But I want "point blank" answers. A "yes He did", or a "no, He allowed them", will suffice.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Bro. OB,

First off, thanks for taking the time to post in this thread....I really appreciate it!! :thumbs:

I think that we are in agreement(I mean all that have posted in this thread) with a lot of what has been posted. But when they state God does "all things", then "all things" would include Him slaughtering His Son Himself, and not "wicked men". Did God kill Jesus or did God allow these wicked men to do it?? I know that they did not take His life, because He freely gave it. But for Him to freely give His life for us, He did have to die. So, the question I want to ask all of y'all who will post in this thread is this:

Did God kill Jesus, or did God allow these wicked men to do it??

i am I AM's!!

Willis

It was God's will that Jesus be turned over to wicked men as a sacrifice of sinners.

So God decreed that it be done. Wicked men did it. God's will is always carried out.

God's intent in it was good and the intent of the wicked men was not.

Genesis 50:20 ESV
20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

So, it is the Father's action of providing his Son. It is the Son's action of going willingly. It is the action of wicked men that carried it out.

 

[InTheLight]

Ok, I'll ask the question (again) for Convicted1:


But, did God kill Jesus Himself???

OR

Did God allow these wicked men to crucify Jesus??

 

[Luke2427]

I have read a lot of "determinism/fatalism" on here for quite a while now.

I doubt it. You may have read what you misunderstood to be fatalism but I doubt that anyone has posted anything of the sort on baptistboard.

If you think they have, provide posts.

When Spurgeon was challenged that this is nothing but fatalism and stoicism, he replied,

What is fate? Fate is this – Whatever is, must be. But there is a difference between that and Providence. Providence says, Whatever God ordains, must be; but the wisdom of God never ordains anything without a purpose. Everything in this world is working for some great end. Fate does not say that. . . . There is all the difference between fate and Providence that there is between a man with good eyes and a blind man.

I am now going to pose a question for all to respond to. This question will make the "rubber meet the road", "draw a line in the sand", and about any other corny cliche' you can think of.

Who slaughtered Jesus and nailed Him to the cross??

I want to find out how "fatal" the fatalism on here is, and how "deterministic" the determinism is.

God and Herod, Pilate, the Jews and the Romans.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

 

[convicted1]

I doubt it. You may have read what you misunderstood to be fatalism but I doubt that anyone has posted anything of the sort on baptistboard.

If you think they have, provide posts.





God and Herod, Pilate, the Jews and the Romans.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Bro Luke,

Thank you for your honest and forthright response!!

Now, when these wicked men did what they did, who put it in their hearts to do so? That's what I am trying to get at. If God put it in their heart, then evil starts and ends with God. Now, if Satan put it there, then he started the evil.
And by this, God allowed Jesus to be slain, and did not do it Himself.

 

[JesusFan]

According to the Holy Bible..

it was God the Father who nailed His own Son, tHE lord jesus, upon the Cross..
To die as a substitutionary sacrifice on behalf of sinners like me..
GOD used the jewish and gentiles peoples of the time to accomplish it, but it was will and act of God all the way thru!

 

[JesusFan]

So, IOW, you are saying that God killed His Son? You have posted scripture to support your belief, but you didn't come "out" and say it?

Well, let's look at what the scriptures say to supports me......:smilewinkgrin:

Now, I am going to use one of the verses you posted against you:



This verse right here states that the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God(God knew this was going to happen) and by wicked hands(are God's hands wicked?) they have crucified and slain.

Now here is some more support that God did not do it:

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. I did not read God's name in this verse, but "ye" I did read....so I assume that Apostle Peter was correct on whom he placed the blame.....I reckon


John 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.

2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.

3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. This right here is God's power working. When they fell to the ground, I believe with everything in me, this was God's way of saying, "you can not lay one finger on My Son, unless I allow it to occur!!"

7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.


Psa. 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

It sure looks like to me that wicked men(not God) "throttled" Jesus, and nail Him to the cross. Granted, He allowed all this to happen. Nothing can be without Him first allowing it to occur. He allowed His Son to place all sins upon Him, and to nail them with Him, to the cross. God allowed it, but did not do it Himself.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

BUT..
the Bible is very clear that salvation is of the LORD.
That the father did send forth his Son, in likeness of sinless flesh, to die on behalf of a lost race.... mankind
God is the initiator of the Gospel, and its completer
In Genesis, the LORD said that the Messiah would come one day to redeem mankind...
God had the Gospel before there was even Sin in His Creation, or at the time first Sin occurred..
Why is it so hard to believe that to God be the glory, as He was the one to give us his Son directly as a sacrifice on our behalf?

 

[percho]

More food for thought.

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

 

[Tom Butler]

A defining verse in this discussion is Acts 2:23:

"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, YE have taken, and by wicked hands, have crucified and slain."

Notice what Peter was saying: Jesus death on the cross was determined by God; yet he described the human hands which crucified Jesus as wicked.

Here is God's sovereignty and human responsibility in a single verse.

 

[percho]

A defining verse in this discussion is Acts 2:23:

"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, YE have taken, and by wicked hands, have crucified and slain."

Notice what Peter was saying: Jesus death on the cross was determined by God; yet he described the human hands which crucified Jesus as wicked.

Here is God's sovereignty and human responsibility in a single verse.

Amen brother.

 

[psalms109:31]

Hope

We know most of these verses in Lamentations are pretty grim like we see in the midst of the cross, but just like in the midst of these verse we see also the hope in them and also the cross.

Lamentations 3:
22 Because of the LORD’s great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24 I say to myself, “The LORD is my portion;
therefore I will wait for him.”

25 The LORD is good to those whose hope is in him,
to the one who seeks him;
26 it is good to wait quietly
for the salvation of the LORD.
27 It is good for a man to bear the yoke
while he is young.

28 Let him sit alone in silence,
for the LORD has laid it on him.
29 Let him bury his face in the dust—
there may yet be hope.
30 Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,
and let him be filled with disgrace.

31 For no one is cast off
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to anyone.

 

[Jerome]

As He was being crucified, Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

For whom exactly, was Jesus interceding?

 

[Rippon]

For Tom Butler

A sister passage is Acts 4:27,28:

Indeed Herod and Pontius met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus,whom you anointed.They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

So it is clear that what Pilate,Herod,and the people conspired to do in killing Christ was according to what God's counsel had determined beforehand had to happen. It was the very will of the Father being carried out. God certainly willed this to happen,not merely allowed it come about. He arranged it. It was the union of the desire of wicked men and the will of God --the Holy Father.

This was my post way back at #9.

 

[Luke2427]

Bro Luke,

Thank you for your honest and forthright response!!

Now, when these wicked men did what they did, who put it in their hearts to do so? That's what I am trying to get at. If God put it in their heart, then evil starts and ends with God. Now, if Satan put it there, then he started the evil.
And by this, God allowed Jesus to be slain, and did not do it Himself.

You are always welcome.

One must have an understanding of what evil is if he is to attempt an answer to this question.

Evil is nothing. It is simply the absence of good.

Just as darkness is nothing. Darkness has no energy, no molecular structure, no being. Darkness is nothing. It is simply the absence of light.

Darkness is not eternal either. God is light and in him is no darkness at all. If God is light and at some point in eternity past there was only God, which MUST have been the case or other things are eternal like God, then there was a time that darkness did not exist. There was only God and his eternal attributes.

At some point before God made the universe darkness came to be. We don't know when or how. We don't have to. We just have to know that God is light and in him is no darkness and God was all there was once and therefore there was a time when there was no darkness.

But we do KNOW what darkness is. It is NOTHING. It is the absence of light.

JUST SO evil is the absence of good.

In order for evil to exist (as much as something that is nothing can exist) in a place, good must vacate from that place.

So when evil came to be in the heart of Lucifer, it required simply the removal of God's goodness from that heart.

You may not totally agree with that but you MUST agree with this: Evil could NOT have existed in the once good heart of Lucifer unless God had allowed it.

The only way God could allow unholiness to exist is to remove holiness from it.

That is the answer to how evil came to be in the hearts of Christ's killers.

Now, you owe us some proof as to your claim that fatalism has been promoted on this board. Where? What posts? You ought to back up such claims.

 

[convicted1]

You are always welcome.

One must have an understanding of what evil is if he is to attempt an answer to this question.

Evil is nothing. It is simply the absence of good.

Just as darkness is nothing. Darkness has no energy, no molecular structure, no being. Darkness is nothing. It is simply the absence of light.

Darkness is not eternal either. God is light and in him is no darkness at all. If God is light and at some point in eternity past there was only God, which MUST have been the case or other things are eternal like God, then there was a time that darkness did not exist. There was only God and his eternal attributes.

At some point before God made the universe darkness came to be. We don't know when or how. We don't have to. We just have to know that God is light and in him is no darkness and God was all there was once and therefore there was a time when there was no darkness.

But we do KNOW what darkness is. It is NOTHING. It is the absence of light.

JUST SO evil is the absence of good.

In order for evil to exist (as much as something that is nothing can exist) in a place, good must vacate from that place.

So when evil came to be in the heart of Lucifer, it required simply the removal of God's goodness from that heart.

You may not totally agree with that but you MUST agree with this: Evil could NOT have existed in the once good heart of Lucifer unless God had allowed it.

The only way God could allow unholiness to exist is to remove holiness from it.

That is the answer to how evil came to be in the hearts of Christ's killers.

Now, you owe us some proof as to your claim that fatalism has been promoted on this board. Where? What posts? You ought to back up such claims.

Definition of "fatalism" per wikipedia.com:

Fatalism is a philosophical doctrine emphasizing the subjugation of all events or actions to fate.

Fatalism generally refers to several of the following ideas:

Though the word “fatalism” is commonly used to refer to an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable, philosophers usually use the word to refer to the view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. and that man has no power to influence the future, or indeed, his own actions. This belief is very similar to predeterminism.
That actions are free, but nevertheless work toward an inevitable end. This belief is very similar to compatibilist predestination.
That acceptance is appropriate, rather than resistance against inevitability. This belief is very similar to defeatism.

So, now you know why I say that "fatalism" is being purported a lot on here.

 

[Tom Butler]

riginally Posted by Rippon
A sister passage is Acts 4:27,28:

Indeed Herod and Pontius met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus,whom you anointed.They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

So it is clear that what Pilate,Herod,and the people conspired to do in killing Christ was according to what God's counsel had determined beforehand had to happen. It was the very will of the Father being carried out. God certainly willed this to happen,not merely allowed it come about. He arranged it. It was the union of the desire of wicked men and the will of God --the Holy Father

Yep, that pretty well settles it.