Jesus paid it all

Pickerel · Sep 29, 2005

Originally posted by webdog:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pickerel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TexasSky:
You can't repent until you believe.

I don't even begin to understand how someone can think you could.

When you came to Christ were you not sorry of your sins first? I was, but hey your entitled to your opinion...

Only Christ Saves! [/QUOTE]Why would you be sorry for your sins if you didn't believe first you were a sinner, and that sin separates you from God? This is kind of like the chicken coming before the egg argument. [/QUOTE]No the glass is half FULL, no the glass is Half EMPTY!!

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

You say believe first then repent, I say GOOD go hard...Tomato, Tamato...!

Only Christ Saves!

James_Newman · Sep 29, 2005

I say the kingdom of God is not eternal salvation. Believe for salvation, repent for the kingdom.

Pickerel · Sep 30, 2005

Originally posted by James_Newman:
I say the kingdom of God is not eternal salvation. Believe for salvation, repent for the kingdom.

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

No forgivness of sins unless one Repents!

Only Christ Saves!

ascund · Sep 30, 2005

Greetings

Originally posted by TexasSky:
You can't repent until you believe.

I don't even begin to understand how someone can think you could.

This shows the failure to understand the biblical relationship of justication to sanctification. Justification by faith pertains to the new birth; sanctification by faithful obedience pertains to spiritual growth. While they are inseparably related, they are yet distinct.

The sinner needs to repent (change their mind) about Jesus in order to receive forgiveness and imputed righteousness from God the Judge.

The believer needs to repent (change their mind) about sins in order to receive forgiveness and cleansing from God our Father.

"Repent" can have at least two different meanings. One must utilize context before one makes such an errant global statement.

Lloyd

ascund · Sep 30, 2005

Greetings

Originally posted by Pickerel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
I say the kingdom of God is not eternal salvation. Believe for salvation, repent for the kingdom.

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. [/QUOTE]This is a tragic but commonplace violation of basic linguistics. The word "repent" has different meanings in different contexts. This is like the English word "run."

__I run a race.
__My nose is running.

It is violently wrong to take the meaning of run from one sentence and thrust it upon the other sentence. This is what you have done with your cut and paste posting of two verses.

Context shows that the first verse you used relates to national Israel - not to Gentiles. The second verse you used relates to the Great Commission sutible for the entire world.

In the first, repentance is only for the preparation of national Israel to accept their Messiah - not personal salvation. In the secton, repentance is a change of mind concerning Jesus suitable for personal salvation.

Same word - two different meanings.

Context rules!
Lloyd

Pickerel · Sep 30, 2005

Originally posted by ascund:
Greetings

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TexasSky:
You can't repent until you believe.

I don't even begin to understand how someone can think you could.

This shows the failure to understand the biblical relationship of justication to sanctification. Justification by faith pertains to the new birth; sanctification by faithful obedience pertains to spiritual growth. While they are inseparably related, they are yet distinct.

The sinner needs to repent (change their mind) about Jesus in order to receive forgiveness and imputed righteousness from God the Judge.

The believer needs to repent (change their mind) about sins in order to receive forgiveness and cleansing from God our Father.

"Repent" can have at least two different meanings. One must utilize context before one makes such an errant global statement.

Lloyd [/QUOTE]What did everyone think Repent meant? Washing your dirty clothes in a creek? I thought everyone knew that to repent was to have a change of mind?

How such a simple thing convolutes the minds of many...!

Only Christ Saves!

BobRyan · Sep 30, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />1Cor 6 NASB
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

Yep - the Gospel is a "good deal" a mangificent gift.

So -- be not deceived.

In Christ,

Bob [/QUOTE]

Originally posted by James_Newman:

That is an interesting bible you are reading there, Bob. I don't think it says quite the same thing mine does.

Well the one I am reading was not "written by me" -- but I like the NASB anyway.

Originally posted by James_Newman:
However, I do agree that fornicators, idolaters, drunkards, etc... will not be in the kingdom of God. But this is written not to unbelievers, but to those who are already saved by grace.

Yep - and in 1Cor 6 it is arguing FOR right behavior BASED on the warning that those who practice sin - engage in evil ARE NOT saved EVEN though they may "Attend church".

The common error of the Jews in Romans 2 and the gentiles in 1Cor 6 was to claim that you can live like the lost as long as you have "your ticket".

So Paul says "BE NOT DECEIVED" and then points to the LIFE LIVED to SHOW the ones NOT going to heaven.

Christ says the same thing in Matt 7 - "be not deceived" and says "NOT everyone who SAYS .... but he who DOES..".

Paul repeats the warning in Romans 2 "NOT the HEARERS but the DOERS will be JUSTIFIED" 2:13.

"For God is NOT partial" Romans 2:11.

Originally posted by James_Newman:

The question is then, can a man be washed and be a fornicator? I think so.

He can HAVE BEEN a fornicator and then AFTERwards have BEEN washed. But notice that the CONTEXT of 1Cor 6 is brother defrauding brother NOW! And in the context of CURRENT sin AFTER salvation Paul says "BE NOT DECEIVED" and then gives a list of sin for which they will not put God in a box and force him to "save them anyway".

HE argues that they ARE DECEIVING themselves to think that they can live like the devil and live with Jesus.

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Certainly this unconditional promise is not to be understood to give us license to sin,

And I think that is the point Paul makes in 1Cor 6.

Agreed.

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Being saved does not guarantee our entrance into this kingdom. But being an unbeliever does guarantee exclusion from it.

I agree sorta.

Being an unbeliever does not guarantee that one day you will not choose to accept Christ as your savior.

Being a believer does not guarantee that one day you will not experience the "Forgiveness revoked" warning of Matt 18 and Ezek 18.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 30, 2005

Originally posted by TexasSky:
You can't repent until you believe.

I don't even begin to understand how someone can think you could.

That is true. The Spirit "CONVICTS THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgement" and you must BELIEVE the truth - the point He is urging home to your soul to then be convicted by that truth that sin is wrong that you are a sinner and that you must now choose to either CLING to sin or reject salvation.

In Christ,

Bob

Pickerel · Oct 1, 2005

A "little understanding"...

True Repentance!

From Spurgeon's sermon, "APART"

True repentance is always accompanied by sorrow.

Repentance is a deep, radical, fundamental, lasting change;
and you will find that, whenever you meet with it in Scripture,
it is always accompanied with sorrow for past sin.

And rest assured of this fact-- that the repentance which has
no tear in its eye, and no mourning for sin in its heart,
is a repentance which needs to be repented of.

In such false repentance, there is no evidence of conversion,
and no sign of the existence of the grace of God.

The man who knows that his sin is forgiven,
does not cease to mourn for it.
No, brethren, his mourning becomes deeper as
his knowledge of his guilt becomes greater.
His hatred of sin grows in proportion as he understands
that love of Christ by which his sin is put away.

In true believers, mourning for sin is chastened and sweetened,
and, in one sense, the fang of bitterness is taken out.

But, in another sense, the more we realize
our indebtedness to God's grace, and the more we see of
the sufferings of Christ in order to effect our redemption,
the more do we hate sin, and the more do we lament
that we ever fell into it.

The man who has led the purest life, when he is brought
before God by the humbling influence of the Holy Spirit,
is the man who almost invariably considers himself
to have been viler than anybody else.

"Repentance is to leave
The sin we loved before,
And show that we in earnest grieve
By doing so no more."

Only Christ Saves!

ascund · Oct 1, 2005

Greetings

As a gifted preacher and man used by God, Spurgeon botched this issue.

Originally posted by Pickerel: From Spurgeon's sermon, "APART"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />True repentance is always accompanied by sorrow.

Repentance is a deep, radical, fundamental, lasting change; and you will find that, whenever you meet with it in Scripture, it is always accompanied with sorrow for past sin.

[/QUOTE]Unbelievers cannot - must not - clean themselves up before they come to Christ. This is impossible. If God required either true sorrow or a deeply radical changed life that is lasting, then no one would be saved.

Repentance is simply a change of mind. Unbelievers must LOOK to the Jesus in the same way that the murmuring Israelites (Num 21) looked to the brazen serpent. The LOOK OF FAITH saves. Sacrifices, rites, obedience, conditions of inner piety are all excluded from this LOOK OF FAITH.

Lloyd

Pickerel · Oct 1, 2005

Unbelievers cannot - must not - clean themselves up before they come to Christ. This is impossible. If God required either true sorrow or a deeply radical changed life that is lasting, then no one would be saved.

Repentance is simply a change of mind. Unbelievers must LOOK to the Jesus in the same way that the murmuring Israelites (Num 21) looked to the brazen serpent. The LOOK OF FAITH saves. Sacrifices, rites, obedience, conditions of inner piety are all excluded from this LOOK OF FAITH.

Lloyd

Baloney! Who said repentance had anything to do with "Cleaning Up" oneself? One has to come to a realization that He/she is a sinner and is in need of the saving Grace of Jesus Christ... that is repentance...Repentance itself does not save anyone at all, ONLY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST SAVES! However to think that one can receive God's gift without admitting that He/She is a Sinner and in the wrong, and to admit that Christ is "Right" and His way, and ONLY His way is necessary for Salvation is Paromount to being Saved!

Even the devil believes and shudders...! However he is not saved... but a sincere repentant heart in Christ's "Atonement" does!

Only Christ Saves!

BobRyan · Oct 1, 2005

Originally posted by Pickerel:
A "little understanding"...

True Repentance!

From Spurgeon's sermon, "APART"

True repentance is always accompanied by sorrow.

Repentance is a deep, radical, fundamental, lasting change;
and you will find that, whenever you meet with it in Scripture,
it is always accompanied with sorrow for past sin.

This was an excellent post! Very well done.

Patterned after the truth of God's word in 2Cor 7 as all can plainly see.

Nowhere in this post did you ever speak of "cleaning one's self up BEFORE coming to God".

But if ranting and pontificating were the only means of refuting your sound post - then I suppose one might "make up" that you had mentioned "cleaning one's self up BEFORE coming to God".

Nobody here would do that - but I could "imagine" someone some day might.

In Christ,

Bob

Pickerel · Oct 2, 2005

Amen Bob!

God Bless
Tyler

Pickerel · Oct 2, 2005

All sins!

By Spurgeon-

The truly repentant person hates all of his sins, not just certain
ones. He says, "Cover yourself with the finest gold,
O sin, I will still hate you! Yes, cover yourself with pleasure,
make yourself flashy, like the snake with its turquoise scales-
I still hate you, for I know your venom, and I run from you,
even when you come to me in the most illusive clothing."

All sin must be given up, or else you will never have Christ;
all evil must be renounced, or else the gates of heaven
must be locked to keep you out forever.

Let us, remember, then, that for repentance
to be sincere, it must be total repentance.

True repentance is a turning of the heart, as well as of the life;
it is the giving up of the whole soul to God, to be His forever
and ever.

It is a renunciation of the sins of the heart,
as well as the corruptions of the life.

Only Christ Saves!

James_Newman · Oct 3, 2005

Pickerel, You said

One has to come to a realization that He/she is a sinner and is in need of the saving Grace of Jesus Christ... that is repentance

but earlier you quote Spurgeon, I believe, as saying

"Repentance is to leave
The sin we loved before,
And show that we in earnest grieve
By doing so no more."

and I think that you represent this to be your understanding as well. So if I understand you correctly, in order to be saved, I must stop sinning after coming to the realization that I am a sinner in need of the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

ascund · Oct 3, 2005

Hey James

Great point!

I think I started Spurgeon's quote in this thread. But anyone can quote it freely - I have no rights to Spurgeon's stuff. I think Pickerel misread the quote or like most here, he simply read one or two words before he launched into his own half-witted posting.

Your fine question shows that repentance for unbelievers is quite different than repentance for believers.

Heretics, like Bob Ryan, would claim that one must come to inner purification before God will accept them. Bible shows that this is impossible (Rom 1:18-3:19). We are so guilty that not one word of self-defense will be given in Judgment (Rom 3:19). Bible shows that the only righteousness that pleases God is Christ's righteousness. His righteousness is EXTERNAL to the believer.

Hence, filthy sinners (like murderers, prostitutes & pimps, gossips, and disobedience children) can be saved exactly as they are through simple faith in Jesus!

Kudo's on a great question!
Lloyd

Jesus paid it all

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