Jesus Prayer in the Garden

[percho]

Is Psalm 116 Messianic?

Is that David speaking as a prophet for the Christ or for himself?

 

[Darrell C]

49 I came to cast fire upon the earth; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51 Think ye that I am come to give peace in the earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 for there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 They shall be divided, father against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother; mother in law against her daughter in law, and daughter in law against her mother in law. Lu 12

The above passage does seem to support that Christ wanted to 'get on with it', here referring to the wrath/civil war that was soon to fall upon 'that generation'.

I am a little bewildered by this, as you go on to say...

No doubt He was anxious to get the whole ordeal over with and 'get on with' the business of entering into His kingdom.

...which is a point that was made.

And it makes sense, doesn't it? Basically, the popularly taught view that Christ was asking not to go to the Cross, at least the implication of it in how it is usually taught by saying that this was a view of the weakness of the humanity of Christ...not only does not make sense from a casual glance, but does not, I believe, sit well in any of us. It is for some an uncomfortable passage.

But you bring up a passage that reinforces my belief that Christ was not only ready to die, but that He was asking that the Father delay that which He came to do no longer.



49 I came to cast fire upon the earth; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!


First ask what does He mean by "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?"

When do we expect this casting of fire, which is speaking of God's judgment (IMO)? I know that some of my brothers see this as having occurred already, but let's set that aside for a moment and concentrate on this from a different perspective: we can conclude that the casting of fire has already began in some manner or other, which I believe to be in keeping with God, when imposing judgment, at the same time doing a work of restoration. In the case of the ministry of Jesus Christ, Christ was both bringing the Gospel and at the same time pronouncing judgment.

From my perspective I myself see this casting of fire to speak of the judgment that is as of yet incomplete (and regardless of our views we should be able to, at the time Christ speaks this, agree) though it has in some manner began already (which would be the pronouncement of the judgment to come on one side, and the declaration of the Gospel on the other.

So if we look at this as speaking of coming judgment, as the context of His teaching just prior to this speaks of, then when He says...


50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!


...we then consider what "baptism" He is speaking of. Could it be a reference to anything other than the Cross?

Now consider that He is "straitened." If this is taken to mean He is "held" or "restrained," until He is baptized with that baptism we would not expect the casting of fire, or, judgment, to begin. Some translations translate synecho as "distressed," which I think gives the meaning of what the Lord is saying. It is often used in connection with thoe that are "held" by adverse conditions, such as "diverse diseases and torments" (Matt. 4:24) or fear (Luke 8:37) and even the oppression of an invading enemy (Luke 19:43).

The pictue is one of the Lord being in a position of constraint. The constraint is that there must be that baptism...first. But even when we get to the Garden, we do not limit the ministry of Christ to His death on the Cross. We include the judgment that brings on those, like many of the "hearers" He spoke to, that reject Him.

John the Baptist presents the picture of fire referring to judgmenty, and in this passage I believe that this is what is in view, both concerning the judgment of God on this world, as well as the judgment of man imposed upon the sinless Son of God. When we get to the Garden, His sorrow is evident, and one thing to keep in mind is that this began, I am sure you may agree, when the Son of God took on the body He would die in. Meaning, we should keep in mind the Humiliation of the Son that set aside His eternal glory to take upon Himself that body.

The above passage does seem to support that Christ wanted to 'get on with it', here referring to the wrath/civil war that was soon to fall upon 'that generation'.

Well, as I said, there is disagreement concerning the fulfillment of that which Christ speaks about. That disagreement set aside for the time being, I cannot see that this passage can negate the view that Christ came for a specific reason, which was to die on the Cross, He was fully aware of that event, and this would have, without question...been a source of sorrow.

Not simply for the physical pain that He knew would accompany this event, but for the greater aspect, which is...the Son of God sorrowed, not for Himself, but for us. In other words, the sin of man was and is a far greater source of sorrow than any physical pain He endured while here.

This is why the very reason He came.

The view that what He would go through was so terrifying to Him limits, in my estimation, the great determination of the Son of God and places what I would consider a minor detail when compared to the atonement which was in view. And I am not trying to say that Christ looked forward to that which He endured, simply trying to bring focus on the bigger picture, which led to Christ willingly suffering the Cross that man might be saved.

Considering the pluralities of Heb 5:7:

Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications..... Heb 5:7

....I doubt this was the first or only time He prayed such, or even the first time in the garden of Gethsemane for that matter.

I believe that even in His childhood, the sin of man was a source of sorrow for Christ.

Concerning the passage above, consider:



Hebrews 5:7-8

King James Version (KJV)

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;


How do we see His request as being "heard?"

If He asks that the pass cup, that the hour pass, and the writer of Hebrews tells us that He was heard (which is to say His request wa granted)...then we have to remove as a possibilty that He was asking not to go to the Cross.


But, if we see His request as a removal of the distress that was the result of His sorrow over the sin of man, we see that it is quite reasonable to conclude that He was asking for that which He came to do to be accomplished. To phrase it as "getting it over with" does not give it the proper respect this passage and incident deserves, so forgive me for that, but, I think it can carry the intent of the Lord's request to the Father.

Likewise, when He says...



Matthew 26:38

King James Version (KJV)

38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.



...we might consider that He is saying, "I am so sorrowful...it is about to kill me."

Again, it does not give the respect I think this statement deserves, but does state it in a way that I think carries the intent within the statement.

Also, we consider that here, we see that His sorrow is, before entering the Garden, already in a heightened state.

The writer of Hebrews goes on to say...


8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;


...which while the anxiety seen in the Garden is surely included, "the things which He suffered" is certainly not limited to.

No doubt He was anxious to get the whole ordeal over with and 'get on with' the business of entering into His kingdom.

Which I agree with. Though I would look at it as "re-entering His Kingdom."

God bless.

 

[agedman]

There is no reason not to be inclusive in the views expressed in this thread.

The agony of the cross was to the God side of Christ the anticipated sentence. He was not a thief hoping to escape, but new the hour and that He would give Himself. He being in total understanding and agreement with the Scriptures (for He is the Word) would have no expectation but to face the cross

Could He have escaped? Certainly. That was one answer He gave at the trial.

The Father's will (command) and therefore the will (desire) of the Son were singular in every area.

However, there is also the emotional aspects that patterned the live of Christ that show His humanity. Human avoidance and other characteristics of humanity are displayed throughout the earthly ministry of Christ not just in the garden. Avoidance is not evil or sinful in every application.

There is no reason to not respect and hold the thinking that the Lord Jesus certainly wanted to get on with the judgement of the cross in anticipation of glorification. That aspect of the prayer is well documented.

There is also no reason not to respect and hold the thinking that the humanity aspect would place the Lord Jesus in avoidance, but He submitted His desire (will) to the command (will) of the Father.

Both, are the same coin with two sides and an edge.

 

[OldRegular]

The standard teaching and I haven't figured out why is that When Jesus prayed that night in the Garden, in Mat. 26:
38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

40And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?


Mark 14:
34And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

35And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Luke 22:

41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground

Each of these is taught that Jesus was asking not to go to the cross, I have heard this teaching for many years. Yet scripture if you look to it doesn't bare this teaching out.

First look at the Mat. 26:38 and Mark 14:34 both say Christ was sorrowful to death. He was in great agony and stress close to death. Matthew 26:39 and Mark 14:35 say He fell on the ground while Luke says He knelt, again a sign of the stress and anguish He was suffering. Luke 22:44 says He was sweating drops of blood this is a condition that is called from stress on the capilaries in the forhead.
So again why would anyone see this as His asking not to go to the cross being the cup? The cup represents death that is for sure but these passage seems to indicate a death in the garden from the strss and pressures on His body. Then we have a passage that says His prayer was heard that night,

Hebrews 5:7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Notice what it says Jesus in the days of His flessh, "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death" and we are told "and was heard in that he feared" His prayer was Heard. the greek Eisakouo is used here for heard, this word means:

1.to give heed to, comply with admonition, to obey
2.to listen to, assent to, a request, to be heard, have request granted
a.of persons offering prayers to God
b.of prayers offered up

God complied with His prayer, the only time we see scripture say Jesus prayed this way was that night in the Garden and His prayer was answered, death in the Garden was taken from Him and in Luke 22:43 we are an Angel came from heaven and strengthened Him. There is Father having heard and complied with Christ prayer of don't let me die here in the Garden and God sent an Angel to strengthen Him, His disciple were sleeping when He needed them most, but His Father heard and answered His prayer. Thank God He hears us and answers or prayers 24-7 just as He did His sons that night.

What say you guys?

Looking at all the pertinent Scripture in the passage from Hebrews we read:

Hebrews 5:6-9
6. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8. Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;[/u[

First God the Father obviously heard the prayer of Jesus Christ. God hears the prayers of all His children. That does not mean that He answers all the prayers offered up in the way expected!

Consider Matthew 26:39:
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

The prayer was: O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

What was the cup? It was not the physical suffering of the cross. It was not the death of His Human Nature He dreaded! It was not the grave He dreaded. He was not even concerned about the resurrection of that body that had been prepared for Him [Hebrews 10:5 ] for He had said in other Scripture:

John 2:19-21
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.

It was His atonement for the sins of the elect! He who knew no sin....!

2 Corinthians 5:21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

This was the "cup" of Jesus Christ's prayer; the sins of all the elect. We cannot comprehend the holiness, the righteousness of the Incarnate God, Jesus Christ. Therefore, we cannot comprehend what it meant for the Incarnate God, Jesus Christ, to take our sins upon Himself.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

His response to the Father, who heard His prayer in the garden, had to be: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Jesus Christ tells us in other Scripture:

Hebrews 12:2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

John 12:27-33
27. Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28. Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33. This he said, signifying what death he should die.