Jesus repudiates Mariolatry, Part the Fourth

[BobRyan]

That said I, personally, recognize the Virgin Mary as Ever Blessed. I have defended this position for those who care to search for it but I see very little reason to do this dance again. Anyone can simply yell their assertion but only reasonable individuals can discuss the merits of another's argument. That isn't happening here.
:smilewinkgrin:

What this thread is missing is the core statement of Christ regarding the title of this thread -- in the BLESSING pronounced upon Mary for her BIOLOGICAL role as mother Christ reponds with "ON the CONTRARY" --

Something we never see any tolerance for among the mariolotry groups.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

So you deny Jesus' humanity then? Are you a Docetist perchance?

Then you are splitting Jesus into God and Man, right?

Is Mary Mother of God the Father? Say yes or no.

Is God the Father God ? Say yes or no.

Your answers will reveal whether "Mother of God" is correct or not.

 

[bound]

Then you are splitting Jesus into God and Man, right?

Is Mary Mother of God the Father? Say yes or no.

Is God the Father God ? Say yes or no.

Your answers will reveal whether "Mother of God" is correct or not.

Is Jesus God the Father? Say yes or no.

Is God the Father God? Say yes or no.

Your answers will reveal whether "Jesus is God".

You are confusing the Divine Persons with the Unity of the Divine Nature. God in all three distinct Persons is God. Nothing is lacking in any one of the three Divine Persons.

Where on is the whole of Divinity is present. You know this but you feel it is cute to play these games with our Sacred Mysteries.

I can appreciate your fear of acknowledging Mary as the Mother of God but if you understood what was being said you would understand this is more about Christology than Mariology. It is about the 'person' Jesus and who He was bodily. He was Fully God and Fully Man, in Unity.

When we speak of Jesus the Christ as God we don't separate the Person Jesus Christ nor do we make distinctions between who is 'more' God, the Father or the Son.

To suggest that Mary didn't bear God because the Father wasn't present or because the Holy Ghost wasn't present is to have a very grave misunderstanding of the Doctrine of the Trinity. The fact remains that 'the whole of the Godhead dwelt among us bodily' in the person Jesus Christ.

I fail to see why you posit what you do.

 

[Eliyahu]

Bound,

It is not honest that you don't answer my question and then expect my answer to your questions first.
You cannot answer my question and this reveals that you know the problem with your calling Mother of God. The Final Judge on who is correct is the Almighty God. Does God really want us to call Mary His Mother? the Mother of God?

What is the meaning of Mother for God?

The main problem with your theology is the pity that you cannot identify Jesus as God, without connecting HIm with Mary ! That's the point of your theology because Deity of your God relies on Mary, and without her there is NO God !

However, my belief is not dependent on Mary, without calling her Mother of God, still I can identify Jesus as God.

Is Jesus God the Father? Say yes or no.

NO ! Jesus is God the Son !

Is God the Father God? Say yes or no.

Yes !

Your answers will reveal whether "Jesus is God".

Yes, Jesus is God !

You are confusing the Divine Persons with the Unity of the Divine Nature. God in all three distinct Persons is God. Nothing is lacking in any one of the three Divine Persons.

No, Sir, you are very much confused because your capacity is limited very much and cannot identify Jesus as God unless you connect Him with Mary. Your god must have been born by a woman, virtually goddess, Mary. Without her, you cannot call Jesus God, but I can identify Him as God without connecting Him with Mary.

Where on is the whole of Divinity is present. You know this but you feel it is cute to play these games with our Sacred Mysteries.

You cannot answer properly and therefore you are pleading with Mystery !

Many pagan believers justify their paganism as Sacred Mystery too !

I can appreciate your fear of acknowledging Mary as the Mother of God but if you understood what was being said you would understand this is more about Christology than Mariology. It is about the 'person' Jesus and who He was bodily. He was Fully God and Fully Man, in Unity.

I have no fear in Jesus Christ but have the Joy of Peace in Him, and your christology depends on Mary because your Christ is son of a goddess, but my Christ is not depending Mary at all but He is Almighty God before your goddess Mary was born !

When we speak of Jesus the Christ as God we don't separate the Person Jesus Christ nor do we make distinctions between who is 'more' God, the Father or the Son.

I don't separate Him either, only the difference is that I don't call her Mother of God because it assaults the other Godheads of Trinity ! She is not the Mother of God the Holy Spirit either !

To suggest that Mary didn't bear God because the Father wasn't present or because the Holy Ghost wasn't present is to have a very grave misunderstanding of the Doctrine of the Trinity. The fact remains that 'the whole of the Godhead dwelt among us bodily' in the person Jesus Christ.
I fail to see why you posit what you do.

I never said about such thing, I simply denied calling Mary the Mother of God because nobody in the Bible called her like that ! Mary didn't produce the Divine nature of Jesus, Mary never called herself Mother of God, she called herself the handmaid of God ! Who in the Bible called her Mother of God? It is an Assault and Insult to God ! I can guarantee you that NOBODY in the Heave will exalt Mary the Mother of God ! Her name is mostly abused by the billions of Catholics. I am very sure that Mary will be angry with billions of Catholics calling herself as Mother of God, because she knows God is the Only Person to be exalted and she herself is mere a servant and handmaid for Him, and is a creature who was created for the sake of Jesus Christ, was created by Jesus Christ. Read Colossians 1:13-21.
Actually the Mary worshippers are the modernized goddess worshippers and they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire for permanent torment. ( Re 20)

 

[D28guy]

Bound,

"To suggest that Mary didn't bear God because the Father wasn't present or because the Holy Ghost wasn't present is to have a very grave misunderstanding of the Doctrine of the Trinity. The fact remains that 'the whole of the Godhead dwelt among us bodily' in the person Jesus Christ. I fail to see why you posit what you do.

"'the whole of the Godhead dwelt among us bodily in the person Jesus Christ"

Oh.

So you are a monotheist then? You deny the triune nature of God, known as the Trinity? That is heresy.

Mike

 

[bound]

Oh.

So you are a monotheist then? You deny the triune nature of God, known as the Trinity? That is heresy.

Mike

Grace and Peace Mike,

No, I am not a monotheist but it's very important to note that we are not Tri-theists. We believe and profess Three Persons in One Essense. Each Person is Fully God not 1/3rd of the Godhead. That is the whole point of recognizing that fact... the Son 'is' wholly God just as the Holy Ghost and the Father. We are not Tri-Theists.

 

[BobRyan]

Is Jesus God the Father? Say yes or no.

Is God the Father God? Say yes or no.

God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are 2 PERSONS in the TRIUNE Godhead of our ONE God.

Mary did NOT give birth to God the Father or God the Holy Spirit.

Scripture NEVER says Mary is "wiser than God" "stronger than God" "Corrector of God" OR "Mother of God" --

It simply is not there.

And for good reason.

EVEN the OP could not help but confess the pure error in the statement "Mother of God" as it requires the teaching of "origin" and that the GOD nature of Christ had its BeGINING in Mary EVEN though the OP want so make it clear that ONLY THE HUMAN nature of Christ BEGINS with Mary.

A point John makes in John 1 WITHOUT going into the error of such RCC traditions as "Mother of God"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[D28guy]

Bob,

"A point John makes in John 1 WITHOUT going into the error of such RCC traditions as "Mother of God"

As has been pointed out before, Jesus Christ Himself balked at something substatially less then that.

The woman in the crowd said...

"Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!"

Thats MUCH less problematic than the idolatrous "Mother of God".

As a matter of fact, its not problematic at all. None of us on our side of this have any problem saying that the teen age girl whom God chose for this use was blessed. Of course she was.

But...Jesus did not say "Yes! Blessed is she!"

Why didnt He?

Rather, He said....

"On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it""

He was a chance to publically honor His earthly mother, and yet...interestingly...He would not do it.

Yet some today have altars to her, and pray long idolatrous prayers to her, and go on inter-continental pilgrimages to visist her "shrines" and maybe be granted a visitarion from the "Queen of the Universe" Mary.

It is much better for them if they dont get that "apperition", I can guarentee...because its not who they think it is.

Sadly.

Mike

 

[BobRyan]

That is true -- it is a test case if ever there was one.

 

[Matt Black]

Not too much. "Born of the virgin Mary; conceived of the Holy Ghost," as the Apostles' Creed states.
Most like to add the caveat that in no way was Mary the mother of the divinity of Christ,

Then you deny the divinity of Christ. Surely you don't mean that?

 

[Matt Black]

Nobody complains when the combined nature -- when the incarnate human nature is specifically highlighted with Mary as the Mother of Jesus or of Jesus Christ or Mother of the Messiah.

These are all listed in scripture as well.

But what scripture DOES NOT allow is terms such as "Mary Mother of God" on the same basis as it would not allow "Stronger than God" - "Mary - wiser than God".

Tell me this then, Bob: when Jesus was a newborn, was Mary stronger than Him? When Jesus was a newborn, was He fully God and fully Man? If not, when would you say that He became God?

GOD IS one -- One Triune God as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. These persons all existed prior to Mary -- she was not the originator of any of them.

All of which is true - and +John's Statement of Faith in the OP affirms all of it, but in no way conflicts with Mary being Mother of God.

Plain and simple.

No was she "wiser than God" or "Stronger than God" or the "corrector of God".

in Christ,

Bob

Please answer my questions above re those statements.

 

[Matt Black]

Then you are splitting Jesus into God and Man, right?

No 'splitting', but Jesus is God and Man.

Is Mary Mother of God the Father? Say yes or no.

:sleeping_2: We've done this before...no

Is God the Father God ? Say yes or no.

Yes

Your answers will reveal whether "Mother of God" is correct or not.

OK, some questions back to you then:

Is Mary the Mother of Jesus, yes or no?

Is Jesus God? Is He God the Son? Yes or no?

Is Mary the Mother of God the Son, yes or no?

Your answers will reveal whether the term 'Mother of God' is correct or not....

 

[Eliyahu]

No 'splitting', but Jesus is God and Man.

:sleeping_2: We've done this before...no

Yes

OK, some questions back to you then:

Is Mary the Mother of Jesus, yes or no?

Is Jesus God? Is He God the Son? Yes or no?

Is Mary the Mother of God the Son, yes or no?

Your answers will reveal whether the term 'Mother of God' is correct or not....

You should remember that RCC never calls Mary the Mother of God the Son, nor Mother of Son of God so that they may insinuate she is Mother of God the Father.

Moreover, here are some more questions.

Was Mary the Mother of God the Son before the Creation of the world?

Was Mary the Mother of God the Son before she was born ?

Did Mary give the Divine Nature of Jesus, the Divine Nature of God the Son to Jesus Christ?

What did Mary do for the Divine Nature of God the Son?

Did the Mother Mary exist before her Son?

 

[Eliyahu]

The purpose of calling Mother of God is this:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/crown.htm


Some of the devout Roman Catholics who loved the Holy Mother.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

Many of the devout Mary worshippers who say they do not worship her but respect her.
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary//resources/english.html


Do they really know about the Gospel?

Do they really believe in Jesus Christ?

Can they believe in Jesus Christ without connecting Him with Mary, their goddess?

 

[Matt Black]

You should remember that RCC never calls Mary the Mother of God the Son, nor Mother of Son of God so that they may insinuate she is Mother of God the Father.

Moreover, here are some more questions.

Was Mary the Mother of God the Son before the Creation of the world?

Was Mary the Mother of God the Son before she was born ?

Did Mary give the Divine Nature of Jesus, the Divine Nature of God the Son to Jesus Christ?

What did Mary do for the Divine Nature of God the Son?

Did the Mother Mary exist before her Son?

Please do me the courtesy of answering my questions first

 

[Eliyahu]

Please do me the courtesy of answering my questions first

I think they were answered already:

OK, some questions back to you then:

Is Mary the Mother of Jesus, yes or no?

Is Jesus God? Is He God the Son? Yes or no?

Is Mary the Mother of God the Son, yes or no?

Your answers will reveal whether the term 'Mother of God' is correct or not....

1. Mary is the Mother of Jesus

2. Jesus is God, God the Son.

3. Mary is Mother of Jesus. Mother of the Lord.

But Mary is never connected with Mother for Deity.

Because the Human Syllogism doesn't reach the Divine Nature which relates to Trinity. It doesn't work with Deity ! Why? I explained to you as Mary is not the Mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit! If she is mother of God the Father and of God the Holy Spirit, Yes, quite possible !

I can still identify Jesus as God without connecting Him with Mary !

But you may feel it impossible to call Jesus God, without calling Mary the Mother of God! because you are highly obssessed with the concept of goddess decorated with the Christian name of Mary. Your goddess gave birth to another god decorated with Christian name again, in the myths of many traditions !

 

[Agnus_Dei]

But Mary is never connected with Mother for Deity...I can still identify Jesus as God without connecting Him with Mary!

We’re not saying that Mary gave birth to God the Father. Orthodox Christians believe that the Logos, the Word and Wisdom of God, became incarnate as Jesus Christ and that He took His flesh from His human mother starting at the very moment when Mary said, Let it be to me according to your word (Luke 1:39).

From that point in time, God the Word dwelt in Mary’s womb for nine months until His birth. Since the Logos shares the exact same divinity as God the Father, yet is a distinct Divine Person, Mary is correctly called the birth-giver of God or Theotokos in that she bore the Word made flesh – Jesus Christ.

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[Eliyahu]

We’re not saying that Mary gave birth to God the Father. Orthodox Christians believe that the Logos, the Word and Wisdom of God, became incarnate as Jesus Christ and that He took His flesh from His human mother starting at the very moment when Mary said, Let it be to me according to your word (Luke 1:39).

From that point in time, God the Word dwelt in Mary’s womb for nine months until His birth. Since the Logos shares the exact same divinity as God the Father, yet is a distinct Divine Person, Mary is correctly called the birth-giver of God or Theotokos in that she bore the Word made flesh – Jesus Christ.

ICXC NIKA
-

Where did you get the Information that Jesus took the flesh from His mother? Which part of her body provided the flesh?

I already told you that such idea is very much absurd and groundless! as none of her body was designed to form a human body without any sperm, neither has she had the capacity to convert the Word into flesh, nor did disappear the previous soul of Jesus Christ which acknowledged Abraham and Moses before.

God the Word dwelt in Mary, but it doesn't mean the 2 basic natures of Mother were fulfilled by her, i.e. she never produced the God the Son, nore existed before God the Son.
Mary started to exist far later than God the Son, her Son, No mother can start to exist later than her son.
Mary never produced God the Son,

In that sense she is disqualified to be called the Mother of God.

 

[mrtumnus]

Where did you get the Information that Jesus took the flesh from His mother? Which part of her body provided the flesh?

I already told you that such idea is very much absurd and groundless! as none of her body was designed to form a human body without any sperm, neither has she had the capacity to convert the Word into flesh, nor did disappear the previous soul of Jesus Christ which acknowledged Abraham and Moses before.

God the Word dwelt in Mary, but it doesn't mean the 2 basic natures of Mother were fulfilled by her, i.e. she never produced the God the Son, nore existed before God the Son.
Mary started to exist far later than God the Son, her Son, No mother can start to exist later than her son.
Mary never produced God the Son,

In that sense she is disqualified to be called the Mother of God.

Your opinion is that Jesus is not really Mary's biological son?

 

[mrtumnus]

Thats MUCH less problematic than the idolatrous "Mother of God".

As a matter of fact, its not problematic at all. None of us on our side of this have any problem saying that the teen age girl whom God chose for this use was blessed. Of course she was.

But...Jesus did not say "Yes! Blessed is she!"

Why didnt He?

Rather, He said....

Quote:
"On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it""


He was a chance to publically honor His earthly mother, and yet...interestingly...He would not do it.

So you believe that he chose to publicly dishonor her?