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Jesus repudiates Mariolatry, Part the Fourth

Joe

New Member
D28guy said:
Mrtumnus,



What? :eek:

Are you saying you are a...Ma'am? A She? A WOMAN?

Why do you have a Mr. in your username?

OK.

DHK, Bob Ryan, Joe, Eliyahu and all the other guys...let all get together.... :1_grouphug: ....have a meeting and brainstorm, and decide what we are going to do about this development!

Mike :thumbs:

That's too funny! You mean you didn't know you were talking to a female this whole time?
This is her post #116 way back in the first thread (similar to this one).
Glad you like Mr. Tumnus. I identify with him because he found courage to do the right thing, although he didn't start out that way. And yes, I am female -- don't let the "Mr." fool you.
Hint- when they wave at you with that smiley wavey guy in the beginning, it's usually a tip off their female. LOL
 
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D28guy

New Member
mrtumness,

"I'm not quite sure what you think you could possibly do about it though.:smilewinkgrin: "

Well, we're gonna...ummmm...probably....in due time...well....I havent got that figured out yet.

But then, remember....the (((MEETING of the MEN))) has not taken place yet. :D

Trust me. When a group of men get together and do some deciding...things happen!

Stay tuned....

Mike
 

D28guy

New Member
Joe,

"That's too funny! You mean you didn't know you were talking to a female this whole time?
This is her post #116 way back in the first thread (similar to this one)."

No. I didnt know. Had no idea. I guess I missed the post you referred to earlier. When I read "mr" I just assumed she was a he.

GLAD YOUR HERE NOW, THOUGH!

The MEETING of the MEN is happening!

Mike :thumbs:
 

D28guy

New Member
mrtumnus,

"Christ is the eternal Son of God. In His incarnation as Jesus Christ He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. Jesus perfectly revealed and did the will of God, taking upon Himself human nature with its demands and necessities and identifying Himself completely with mankind yet without sin. He honored the divine law by His personal obedience, and in His substitutionary death on the cross He made provision for the redemption of men from sin. He was raised from the dead with a glorified body and appeared to His disciples as the person who was with them before His crucifixion. He ascended into heaven and is now exalted at the right hand of God where He is the One Mediator, fully God, fully man, in whose Person is effected the reconciliation between God and man. He will return in power and glory to judge the world and to consummate His redemptive mission. He now dwells in all believers as the living and ever present Lord."

Do you believe Christ is the one and ONLY mediator between God and man?

Mike
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Eliyahu said:
Matt,

YOur answer is quite reasonable and rational, but we need to clarify a little further.




In the last 2 sentences, the wordings are quite correct if the case were for the average human beings.

1) What does it mean by " she bore" ?
We normally use it for giving birth to someone, and it connects with " Pre-existence and the Reproduction " However, in case of Mary-Jesus relationship, Mary just carried Him, she never created Jesus, never existed before Jesus existed. So, those wordings cannot apply to the relationship between her and Jesus.
I would in this instance use it to mean that she carried the zygote, then embryo, then fetus of Jesus, God the Son, in her womb, and then gave birth by bringing Him forth from her womb through the usual biological labour process. That's what I understand by and mean when I use the term theotokos or Mother of God.

2) Not only Mary, there were many women who existed before Jesus came into the world. Jesus may have said to one of them, " Look at my Mother who keeps the word of God!" Jesus was God even before He was conceived and before He was born, Mary added nothing unto His Deity!
She carried HIs Deity in her womb
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
D28guy said:
Mrtumnus,



What? :eek:

Are you saying you are a...Ma'am? A She? A WOMAN?

Why do you have a Mr. in your username?

OK.

DHK, Bob Ryan, Joe, Eliyahu and all the other guys...let all get together.... :1_grouphug: ....have a meeting and brainstorm, and decide what we are going to do about this development!

Mike :thumbs:
I'll change my name to Martha if you think that'll help!
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Matt Black said:
I would in this instance use it to mean that she carried the zygote, then embryo, then fetus of Jesus, God the Son, in her womb, and then gave birth by bringing Him forth from her womb through the usual biological labour process. That's what I understand by and mean when I use the term theotokos or Mother of God.

Was the Zygote contributed by any part of Mary or any particle of Mary?

She carried HIs Deity in her womb

So, you are believing Mary was the Deity carrier, not the mother of Deity, right?
 

Agnus_Dei

New Member
Eliyahu said:
So, you are believing Mary was the Deity carrier, not the mother of Deity, right?
Mary carried both natures of Christ!!! His humanity and His Divinity. What do you believe Eliyahu?

ICXC NIKA
-
 

mrtumnus

New Member
D28guy said:
mrtumness,



Well, we're gonna...ummmm...probably....in due time...well....I havent got that figured out yet.

But then, remember....the (((MEETING of the MEN))) has not taken place yet. :D

Trust me. When a group of men get together and do some deciding...things happen!

Stay tuned....

Mike
Well, I'm definitely shaking after that.

With laughter.
 

mrtumnus

New Member
Agnus_Dei said:
Mary carried both natures of Christ!!! His humanity and His Divinity. What do you believe Eliyahu?

ICXC NIKA
-
I believe the differentation being made is there are those who do not believe that Mary is Jesus' biological mother. I would be one who disagrees with that.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
mrtumnus said:
I believe the differentation being made is there are those who do not believe that Mary is Jesus' biological mother. I would be one who disagrees with that.

So, you disbelieve in order to call Mary the Biological Mother?

You may believe this:

Flesh became Flesh

Word cannot become Flesh.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Agnus_Dei said:
Mary carried both natures of Christ!!! His humanity and His Divinity. What do you believe Eliyahu?

ICXC NIKA
-

Nowhere in the Bible, Mary is exalted above any human beings, nor was she called Mother of God.

You may not believe in Bible and that's why you feel free to exalt anyone else than God.
 

mrtumnus

New Member
Eliyahu said:
So, you disbelieve in order to call Mary the Biological Mother?

You may believe this:

Flesh became Flesh

Word cannot become Flesh.

No, I believe, and that is that Mary is indeed the biological mother. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

The red is interesting, and is directly contradicted by Scripture:

Joh 1:14 -
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
mrtumnus said:
No, I believe, and that is that Mary is indeed the biological mother. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

You cannot believe both as they are contradictory.

Biological Mother means that she offered something to the embryo so that it may form a part of it, i.e. she offered the ovum so that the half of the baby body is from her.

In such case, the Bible cannot claim that Word became Flesh, because the flesh was originated from the flesh ( Ovum is from the flesh).

Moreover, Ovum is not designed for fertilization with the Word.


The red is interesting, and is directly contradicted by Scripture:

Joh 1:14 -
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

1. Bible clearly denied the claim that Flesh became Flesh. (Jn 1:14)

2. Jesus was already born before He was born out of Mary.
Read Matthew 1:20

το γαρ εν αυτη γεννηθεν εκ Πνευματοσ εστιν Αγιου

(The one in her is born by the Holy Spirit)

3. Hebrew 1:5

Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

4. If there were any fertilization process and thereby Jesus was born, where was the previous Jesus gone who met Abraham and for whom Moses worked for? Read John 8:56-58, Heb 11:26.

5. This is why the Hebrew writer said this;

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. 4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. 5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

The Bible verses cannot stand if either of Melchizedek or Son of God have a Mother. Both of them are very similar each other like the comparison of 2 photos of one person between childhood and adulthood, in the sense that they both have no ( earthly) father, no mother, no genealogy, no beginning of the days, no end of life, King of Righteousness, KIng of Peace, but live forever as the eternal Priest.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
mrtumnus said:
Joh 1:14 -
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

You cannot believe the above Bible verse if you believe Jesus had a Biological mother.

The red portion is what you are believing.

Instead you strongly believe and insist that Flesh became Flesh and that Word cannot become Flesh.
 
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mrtumnus

New Member
Eliyahu said:
You cannot believe the above Bible verse.

The red portion is what you are believing.

Instead you strongly believe and insist that Flesh became Flesh and that Word cannot become Flesh.
No, the Word became flesh. There is no contradiction regarding using Mary's ovum for this.

You seem to be of the opinion that because Jesus has existed from all eternity, this rules out that Mary is his biological mother? Am I understanding this correctly?

The Bible says (more than once) that Mary is Jesus' mother. It never calls Joseph Jesus' father. If they were both surrogates, this would be clear. In fact, it points out that 'it was thought' that Joseph was Jesus' father. Why doesn't it say this about Mary (it was thought that she was his mother)? Instead, it repeatedly says -- she is his mother. Is the Bible in error?

The Bible also says that the human nature of Jesus was a descendant of David. So how is this true, if he has no biological ties to anybody?
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
mrtumnus said:
No, the Word became flesh. There is no contradiction regarding using Mary's ovum for this.

If the Word became Flesh, then Jesus can have NO Biological Mother !

You are claiming Oxymoron !

You seem to be of the opinion that because Jesus has existed from all eternity, this rules out that Mary is his biological mother? Am I understanding this correctly?

No ! The Truth that Jesus Cannot have any Biological Mother comes from the Truth that Word became Flesh. Biological Mother means that Some Flesh became Another Flesh !

The Bible says (more than once) that Mary is Jesus' mother. It never calls Joseph Jesus' father. If they were both surrogates, this would be clear. In fact, it points out that 'it was thought' that Joseph was Jesus' father. Why doesn't it say this about Mary (it was thought that she was his mother)? Instead, it repeatedly says -- she is his mother. Is the Bible in error?

Calling any surrogate Mother or step-Father as Mother orFather is a small issue.

Read Luke 2:41, which states His parents. Joseph was a step father and Mary was a surrogate mother, both were in different status.
Read Luke 2:48 - Mary said thy father.
Calling somone who is surrogate mother or step father doesn't make them Biological parents.

The Bible also says that the human nature of Jesus was a descendant of David. So how is this true, if he has no biological ties to anybody?

Why did the Bible record about the genealogy of Joseph? Is it a great honor for him? Why doesn't the Bible record only the gealogy of Mary?
 

mrtumnus

New Member
Eliyahu said:
If the Word became Flesh, then Jesus can have NO Biological Mother !

You are claiming Oxymoron !



No ! The Truth that Jesus Cannot have any Biological Mother comes from the Truth that Word became Flesh. Biological Mother means that Some Flesh became Another Flesh !
Yes! The fact that Word became Flesh has nothing to do with 'how' God achieved this. There is no conflict here with Mary being Jesus' biological mother.

Eliyahu said:
Calling any surrogate Mother or step-Father as Mother orFather is a small issue.

Read Luke 2:41, which states His parents. Joseph was a step father and Mary was a surrogate mother, both were in different status.
Read Luke 2:48 - Mary said thy father.
Calling somone who is surrogate mother or step father doesn't make them Biological parents.



Why did the Bible record about the genealogy of Joseph? Is it a great honor for him? Why doesn't the Bible record only the gealogy of Mary?
Because the genealogy of Joseph also satisified the requirement from the perspective of the patriarchal nature of society. Mary's geneology satifies the actual descendancy, the 'seed' of David from which the Messiah came. However, in these geneologies it is noted that it was only 'thought' that Joseph was the father. From your perspective, there is no reason to quote the geneologies at all, because the prophecy that the Messiah would be from the seed of David is false.
 
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