Jesus repudiates Mariolatry, Part the Fourth

[Joe]

The Bible says (more than once) that Mary is Jesus' mother.Why doesn't it say this about Mary (it was thought that she was his mother)? Instead, it repeatedly says -- she is his mother. Is the Bible in error?

The Bible also says that the human nature of Jesus was a descendant of David. So how is this true, if he has no biological ties to anybody?

Hey mrtumnus How's it going?

Because you reminded me, I ordered both LW&W movies from Netflix last week. One was excellent! Yet the older cartoon from the late 70"s was disappointing. The newest/newer non-cartoon exceeded my expectations. As a Christian now, it was exciting to see how it mirrors the Bible. The wickid witch was too attractive imo. The Lion was magnificent, and so was mrtumnus.I assume they used a real Lion for Aslan in portions of the movie.
Anyways, glad you're here but surprised you haven't budged!

According to your words above, I underlined them, you admit the Bible truths. No, the bible is not in error. It is very clear. Mary certainly knows the truth of the titles, She only has two things to say about it

1. The only title Virgin Mary gives to herself in the Bible is the "servant of the Lord".
Luke 1:38 "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.

2. Mary says generations will call her "blessed" Luke 1:48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed

I am very concerned for your salvation! Here is a verse which comes to mind

1 John 1: 6-7 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

 

[mrtumnus]

Hey mrtumnus How's it going?

Because you reminded me, I ordered both LW&W movies from Netflix last week. One was excellent! Yet the older cartoon from the late 70"s was disappointing. The newest/newer non-cartoon exceeded my expectations. As a Christian now, it was exciting to see how it mirrors the Bible. The wickid witch was too attractive imo. The Lion was magnificent, and so was mrtumnus.I assume they used a real Lion for Aslan in portions of the movie.
Anyways, glad you're here but surprised you haven't budged!

According to your words above, I underlined them, you admit the Bible truths. No, the bible is not in error. It is very clear. Mary certainly knows the truth of the titles, She only has two things to say about it

1. The only title Virgin Mary gives to herself in the Bible is the "servant of the Lord".
Luke 1:38 "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.

2. Mary says generations will call her "blessed" Luke 1:48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed

I am very concerned for your salvation! Here is a verse which comes to mind

1 John 1: 6-7 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Glad you enjoyed the movie. I thought the witch was right on -- Satan is rarely unattractive at first glance.

I do genuinely appreciate your concern for me (I mean that), but this is because I believe that Mary is really Jesus' mother? That when the Bible says his human nature was a descendant of David (KVJ says "which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh") is true? That all the references of Jesus as "Son of David" are true?

The thing I am obviously not catching here is why people think it's not possible that Jesus is Mary's biological son? Perhaps you could help me with that.

 

[Eliyahu]

Yes! The fact that Word became Flesh has nothing to do with 'how' God achieved this. There is no conflict here with Mary being Jesus' biological mother.

If you can believe both that Word became Flesh and that Jesus had a Bio Mother, then you should explain how it could happen. No Way ! Please explain if any!

Because the genealogy of Joseph also satisified the requirement from the perspective of the patriarchal nature of society. Mary's geneology satifies the actual descendancy, the 'seed' of David from which the Messiah came. However, in these geneologies it is noted that it was only 'thought' that Joseph was the father. From your perspective, there is no reason to quote the geneologies at all, because the prophecy that the Messiah would be from the seed of David is false.

Yah ! That's why I say that Joseph was a step-father and Mary was a Surrogate Mother so that they may fulfill the prophecy of the Bible.
You explained what I explained. Even the step father's genealogy meant to prove the prophecy there.

 

[mrtumnus]

If you can believe both that Word became Flesh and that Jesus had a Bio Mother, then you should explain how it could happen. No Way ! Please explain if any!

Could you explain why you think this is not possible? Because this is clearly the part that I am not 'getting'.

 

[mrtumnus]

Yah ! That's why I say that Joseph was a step-father and Mary was a Surrogate Mother so that they may fulfill the prophecy of the Bible.
You explained what I explained. Even the step father's genealogy meant to prove the prophecy there.

Jesus is not "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" if Mary is not his biological mother. The prophecy would be false.

 

[Joe]

Glad you enjoyed the movie. I thought the witch was right on -- Satan is rarely unattractive at first glance.

I do genuinely appreciate your concern for me (I mean that), but this is because I believe that Mary is really Jesus' mother? That when the Bible says his human nature was a descendant of David (KVJ says "which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh") is true? That all the references of Jesus as "Son of David" are true?

The thing I am obviously not catching here is why people think it's not possible that Jesus is Mary's biological son? Perhaps you could help me with that.

Ok to give you a quick, and somewhat lazy answer, here it is-

Mary is marred with a sin nature, so our Holy God could not have been birthed by her.

I'll try to find you verses, just a sec ok. Good point about Satan and the movie.

 

[Eliyahu]

The Truth that Jesus had no Biological Mother will continue to stand as long as the Truth that the Word became Flesh ( Jn 1:14).

This is why Bible says this:

2 Cor 5:

16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 

[mrtumnus]

The Truth that Jesus had no Biological Mother will continue to stand as long as the Truth that the Word became Flesh ( Jn 1:14).

This is why Bible says this:

2 Cor 5:

16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

This really doesn't answer my question as to why this is so 'impossible'?

Or how is it possible that Jesus "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh", yet Mary is not really his mother?

 

[Eliyahu]

Jesus is not "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" if Mary is not his biological mother. The prophecy would be false.

Jesus came out of the seed of Abraham and David. Read Greek Bible of Hebrew 2:16 and Gal 4:4.

Was Jesus the God Almighty made by a woman?

This is why I believe that Roman Catholics and their supporters believe in god made by a woman !, not the Word of God which came in the form of Flesh.

 

[mrtumnus]

Ok to give you a quick, and somewhat lazy answer, here it is-

Mary is marred with a sin nature, so our Holy God could not have been birthed by her.

I'll try to find you verses, just a sec ok. Good point about Satan and the movie.

I'm sure we could have some interesting discussions regarding how the Bible 'proves' Mary had a sin nature.

However, even if this were true -- you are saying that the power of the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary would not correct this in Jesus?

And please explain how Jesus "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" if Mary was not really his mother?

 

[Eliyahu]

This really doesn't answer my question as to why this is so 'impossible'?

Or how is it possible that Jesus "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh", yet Mary is not really his mother?

Bring the Bible please.

 

[mrtumnus]

Jesus came out of the seed of Abraham and David. Read Greek Bible of Hebrew 2:16 and Gal 4:4.

Was Jesus the God Almighty made by a woman?

This is why I believe that Roman Catholics and their supporters believe in god made by a woman !, not the Word of God which came in the form of Flesh.

I have never said that Jesus was 'made' by a woman. Don't know where you got that.

I don't even think that I was 'made' by a woman. And I'm really sure I have a biological mother.

 

[mrtumnus]

Bring the Bible please.

Are you referring to the verse? Romans 1:3, KJV

 

[mrtumnus]

Jesus came out of the seed of Abraham and David. Read Greek Bible of Hebrew 2:16 and Gal 4:4.

Was Jesus the God Almighty made by a woman?

This is why I believe that Roman Catholics and their supporters believe in god made by a woman !, not the Word of God which came in the form of Flesh.

Hebrew 2:16 -- For verily he took not F7 on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law

Thanks, those are a couple of great verses that support my position. Since the seed of David directly descends from the seed of Abraham, that would be true. According to you however, this verse is false.

And you can't see the difference in being made of a woman, and made by a woman?

 

[Eliyahu]

Are you referring to the verse? Romans 1:3, KJV

We must remember that KJV was translated before the Life Science was developped, and in KJV the meaning is neither supporting Biological mother-hood nor surrogate mother-hood.

Let's read the Greek texts.

του γενομενου εκ σπερματοσ Δαβιδ κατα σαρκα

come out of seed of David according to flesh.

Where could you find the evidence that the Flesh became Flesh?

This is the same verse as Galatians 4:4

 

[mrtumnus]

We must remember that KJV was translated before the Life Science was developped, and in KJV the meaning is neither supporting Biological mother-hood nor surrogate mother-hood.

Let's read the Greek texts.

του γενομενου εκ σπερματοσ Δαβιδ κατα σαρκα

come out of seed of David according to flesh.

Where could you find the evidence that the Flesh became Flesh?

This is the same verse as Galatians 4:4

How isn't "coming out of seed of David" not relating to the flesh?

What exactly does "coming out of the seed" mean to you? Especially in relationship to "flesh"?

 

[Eliyahu]

Hebrew 2:16 -- For verily he took not F7 on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law

Thanks, those are a couple of great verses that support my position. Since the seed of David directly descends from the seed of Abraham, that would be true. According to you however, this verse is false.

And you can't see the difference in being made of a woman, and made by a woman?

You are claiming the false theory because you don't know much about the grammar there.

In Heb 2:16, the spermatos is not the objective form but the genitive form which means that certain natures and attributes of the Sperm of Abraham. What the Bible says there is that Jesus didn't come as an Angel, but as a human being with the attributes of the seed of Abraham.

Galatians 4:4 is far away and nobody among the Catholics claim the Biological motherhood from there.

The Fundamental Truth is that Jesus is God, the Word of God became Flesh, not the Flesh became flesh.

The more strongly you insist the Biological Motherhood of Jesus, the more strongly you are denying the Truth that the Word became Flesh, declaring that you don't believe the Fundamental Truth of Christianity.

Believe me, Word became Flesh.

If you claim Biological Motherhood, are you saying this way?

Word became Flesh - component A
Flesh of Mary became Flesh- Component B

So, are you claiming that Jesus had 2 kinds of fleshes?

 

[Eliyahu]

How isn't "coming out of seed of David" not relating to the flesh?

By Surrogate Motherhood.

What exactly does "coming out of the seed" mean to you? Especially in relationship to "flesh"?

Surrogate Motherhood.

 

[annsni]

Eliyahu - I've honestly never heard the idea that Jesus did not come from Mary's seed. Genesis 3:15 speaks of Eve's "seed" bruising the serpent's head - a foreshadowing of Jesus. If He were not born of Mary's seed, then He would not be fully human descended from Adam.

Could you show some outside support of your view? Any reputable Christian source who agrees with this?

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu - I've honestly never heard the idea that Jesus did not come from Mary's seed. Genesis 3:15 speaks of Eve's "seed" bruising the serpent's head - a foreshadowing of Jesus. If He were not born of Mary's seed, then He would not be fully human descended from Adam.

Could you show some outside support of your view? Any reputable Christian source who agrees with this?

Ann,

I didn't say that Jesus didn't come out of Seed of Abraham, but said Jesus is not the biological seed of Abraham.

If Jesus was the Bio Seed of Abraham, then how was He formed ?

Ovum of any woman is not designed to be fertilized with the Word of God.

The Bible itself never support such idea.

Word became the Flesh is the fundamental truth, and Catholic denies such Truth claiming that the flesh of Mary became flesh of Jesus !

Mary was used as a Surrogate Mother, and that's it !
Jesus was born in the family of David's because both Joseph and Mary belonged to him, and that was called " seed of David"