Jesus repudiates Mariolatry, Part the Fourth

[Eliyahu]

In this discussion, Heb 2:16 is important and the word " Spermatos" is NOT Objective form, but GENITIVE !


If Jesus was the seed of Abraham, why does the Bible say Spermatos in Genitive form?

 

[annsni]

Ann,

I didn't say that Jesus didn't come out of Seed of Abraham, but said Jesus is not the biological seed of Abraham.

If Jesus was the Bio Seed of Abraham, then how was He formed ?

Ovum of any woman is not designed to be fertilized with the Word of God.

The Bible itself never support such idea.

Word became the Flesh is the fundamental truth, and Catholic denies such Truth claiming that the flesh of Mary became flesh of Jesus !

Mary was used as a Surrogate Mother, and that's it !
Jesus was born in the family of David's because both Joseph and Mary belonged to him, and that was called " seed of David"

The womb of any woman is also not designed to carry the Word of God - and it takes no greater miracle to have Mary's seed fertilized by the Spirit than it does to create a completely new being in her.

Again, can you show me any reputable Christian resource that agrees with you in this? Because I just cannot find it at all when I googled this thought. Historical Christianity says that Jesus was born of Mary's seed.

 

[Joe]

I'm sure we could have some interesting discussions regarding how the Bible 'proves' Mary had a sin nature.

However, even if this were true -- you are saying that the power of the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary would not correct this in Jesus?

And please explain how Jesus "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" if Mary was not really his mother?

Jesus not only could, but did live his whole life sinless.


1 Peter 2:22 says, "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." 1 John 3:5 says, ". . . And in him is no sin."

Jesus father, our father, Mary’s father, OUR GOD was sinless.

Hebrew 4:15 says, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet was without sin."


Mary is not sinless. If she were sinless, she couldn’t be saved by her son’s sacrifice on the Cross.

Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

If Jesus was Mary’s biological son, he would have to inherit a sin nature. This goes against the purpose in which God sent our Savior. For him to die on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins
The “Overshadowing” speaking in that verse is the holy spirit impregnanting Mary, using her womb as an incubator. She is a surrogate mother, there is no other way around it.

You can’t redefine “overshadowing” to mean making Jesus perfect. He was already perfect, as was his seed. Jesus did not need correction.[/B]

Also note below here the word a. It doesn’t say HER Son (Mary’s son) but a son. This separation, imo, helps to prove that Jesus is not Mary’s biological son.

Luke 1:28-33
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

 

[mrtumnus]

You are claiming the false theory because you don't know much about the grammar there.

In Heb 2:16, the spermatos is not the objective form but the genitive form which means that certain natures and attributes of the Sperm of Abraham. What the Bible says there is that Jesus didn't come as an Angel, but as a human being with the attributes of the seed of Abraham.

Galatians 4:4 is far away and nobody among the Catholics claim the Biological motherhood from there.

The Fundamental Truth is that Jesus is God, the Word of God became Flesh, not the Flesh became flesh.

The more strongly you insist the Biological Motherhood of Jesus, the more strongly you are denying the Truth that the Word became Flesh, declaring that you don't believe the Fundamental Truth of Christianity.

Believe me, Word became Flesh.

If you claim Biological Motherhood, are you saying this way?

Word became Flesh - component A
Flesh of Mary became Flesh- Component B

So, are you claiming that Jesus had 2 kinds of fleshes?

Frankly Eliyahu, I have no idea how you're making your conclusions here. I've never said "flesh became flesh". The question is the method God used for the Word to become flesh. And I think that is biologically through Mary, so that the prophecy regarding the seed of David is fulfilled.

 

[mrtumnus]

By Surrogate Motherhood.



Surrogate Motherhood.

Surrogate motherhood has nothing to do with the 'seed' of David that I can see.

 

[mrtumnus]

In this discussion, Heb 2:16 is important and the word " Spermatos" is NOT Objective form, but GENITIVE !


If Jesus was the seed of Abraham, why does the Bible say Spermatos in Genitive form?

Okay, I will admit to being a little out of my league here in terms of Greek etc. However, does GENITIVE not mean 'Possessive"?

And objective would be 'somewhat independent'?

So while I probably don't have a clue what I'm talking about here -- I would say that it's in genitive form because we really are speaking about Abraham's personal seed, not an 'objective' something that conveys some abstract meaning.

 

[mrtumnus]

The womb of any woman is also not designed to carry the Word of God - and it takes no greater miracle to have Mary's seed fertilized by the Spirit than it does to create a completely new being in her.

Again, can you show me any reputable Christian resource that agrees with you in this? Because I just cannot find it at all when I googled this thought. Historical Christianity says that Jesus was born of Mary's seed.

You would be correct in this Ann (I'm glad to see I'm not going crazy).

Okay, maybe there's not enough evidence to support that I'm not crazy.

This idea is relatively new theologically but is beginning to make its rounds. It is not the first time I've seen it (John Hagee preaches this as well).

 

[annsni]

You would be correct in this Ann (I'm glad to see I'm not going crazy).

Okay, maybe there's not enough evidence to support that I'm not crazy.

This idea is relatively new theologically but is beginning to make its rounds. It is not the first time I've seen it (John Hagee preaches this as well).

See, I said a REPUTABLE Christian source. Yeah - while I so not agree with you that Mary is the mother of God, she WAS the physical mother of Jesus and I think it's a standard belief of mainstream,historical Christianity.

 

[Eliyahu]

You would be correct in this Ann (I'm glad to see I'm not going crazy).

Okay, maybe there's not enough evidence to support that I'm not crazy.

This idea is relatively new theologically but is beginning to make its rounds. It is not the first time I've seen it (John Hagee preaches this as well).

This idea must be new, correct.

However, even before the life science was developed, many True Christians rejected the physical contributions without knowing very much about the science. I didn't hear from John Hagee, but I have got the conviction on this when I had a lengthy discussion on the life science with a Doctor who practiced medicine over 40 years.

The Greek genitive meant some meaning was abbreviated from there, not the direct objective of the verb - take, and therefore the person Jesus didn't take the seed itself.

When we come to Heb 10:5 - , we notice Jesus had the idea before His incarnation that He is coming to the world.
Also, Jesus mentioned He IS before Abraham was ( Jn 8:58) to convince that Abraham rejoiced to see His Days and saw it.
Moses preferred the reproach for Christ to all the riches and glory of Egypt ( Heb 11:26)

Where were those memories of Jesus gone at the time the human embryo was formed in Mary if Jesus was the result of the Biological reaction by Mary?

Not even 1% of Jesus memory or capacity that Jesus had before His coming into the world disappeared, and Jesus was still in the Heaven ( John 3:13). He was the Creator ( Col 1:14-20), God didn't create anything without Jesus ( John 1:1-, Ephesians 3:9)


In OT, we can find Jesus Christ worked so many times in OT, appeared to Manoa, to Abraham, to Moses, to Jacob in human form. Was He shown in ghost form? He wrestled with Jacob.

Did Jesus belong to Adam's race? Read 1 Cor 15

 

[Eliyahu]

See, I said a REPUTABLE Christian source. Yeah - while I so not agree with you that Mary is the mother of God, she WAS the physical mother of Jesus and I think it's a standard belief of mainstream,historical Christianity.

In order for Mary to become the Biological Mother, there must be a link between the body of Jesus and that of Mary, namely,

- 1)the Ovum of Mary became the flesh without sperm

-2) the ovum of Mary became the flesh by fertilization with the Word of God

-3) any other part of flesh of Mary became the flesh by non-sexual reproduction like mutagenic reaction, etc.


Which one are you talking about?

 

[mrtumnus]

See, I said a REPUTABLE Christian source. Yeah - while I so not agree with you that Mary is the mother of God, she WAS the physical mother of Jesus and I think it's a standard belief of mainstream,historical Christianity.

Yes, last I checked, Hagee's latest book declares that Jesus was not the Messiah prophesied for the Jews.

It is always nice to find common ground Ann. :thumbs:

 

[mrtumnus]

Jesus not only could, but did live his whole life sinless.


1 Peter 2:22 says, "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." 1 John 3:5 says, ". . . And in him is no sin."

Jesus father, our father, Mary’s father, OUR GOD was sinless.

Hebrew 4:15 says, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet was without sin."


Mary is not sinless. If she were sinless, she couldn’t be saved by her son’s sacrifice on the Cross.

Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." This is while Jesus is still in the womb.

If Jesus was Mary’s biological son, he would have to inherit a sin nature. This goes against the purpose in which God sent our Savior. For him to die on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins
The “Overshadowing” speaking in that verse is the holy spirit impregnanting Mary, using her womb as an incubator. She is a surrogate mother, there is no other way around it.

You can’t redefine “overshadowing” to mean making Jesus perfect. He was already perfect, as was his seed. Jesus did not need correction.[/B]

Also note below here the word a. It doesn’t say HER Son (Mary’s son) but a son. This separation, imo, helps to prove that Jesus is not Mary’s biological son.

Luke 1:28-33
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

So how do you interpret "made of a woman"?

Regarding this:
If Jesus was Mary’s biological son, he would have to inherit a sin nature.

I believe that statement defies the power of God.

Regarding this:
Mary is not sinless. If she were sinless, she couldn’t be saved by her son’s sacrifice on the Cross.

I would say she was absolutely saved by her son's sacrifice on the cross. The question is -- when did this occur? Mary is quoted as saying her spirit rejoices in "God my savior". Not "God my future savior".

 

[Eliyahu]

Yes, last I checked, Hagee's latest book declares that Jesus was not the Messiah prophesied for the Jews.

It is always nice to find common ground Ann. :thumbs:

You are trying to make the false accusation again which was typical of Roman Catholic when they tortured and killed many innocent Christian believers.

I believe that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied for the Jews and Israel.

But I believe that Word became the Flesh, none of the flesh of Mary became flesh of Jesus.

 

[annsni]

In order for Mary to become the Biological Mother, there must be a link between the body of Jesus and that of Mary, namely,

- 1)the Ovum of Mary became the flesh without sperm

-2) the ovum of Mary became the flesh by fertilization with the Word of God

-3) any other part of flesh of Mary became the flesh by non-sexual reproduction like mutagenic reaction, etc.


Which one are you talking about?

I'm speaking that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary, and with her ovum, created the physical body that Jesus indwelt. HOW this is done, that's between God and ..... God. I wasn't there nor do I have Mary's medical records. I DO have the Word of God that says that the seed of Eve would bruise the serpent's head. That would mean that Jesus has a physical connection to the human race - more than a being created completely apart from mankind.

 

[mrtumnus]

You are trying to make the false accusation again which was typical of Roman Catholic when they tortured and killed many innocent Christian believers.

I believe that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied for the Jews and Israel.

But I believe that Word became the Flesh, none of the flesh of Mary became flesh of Jesus.

Who did I make a false accusation against exactly?

 

[mrtumnus]

I'm speaking that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary, and with her ovum, created the physical body that Jesus indwelt. HOW this is done, that's between God and ..... God. I wasn't there nor do I have Mary's medical records. I DO have the Word of God that says that the seed of Eve would bruise the serpent's head. That would mean that Jesus has a physical connection to the human race - more than a being created completely apart from mankind.

I feel like the cavalry showed up.:love2:

 

[annsni]

I feel like the cavalry showed up.:love2:

LOL - I was looking for the little stick horse smilie! To show me coming riding in! I couldn't find it (I know we don't have it here - looking for it elsewhere).

 

[Eliyahu]

I'm speaking that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary, and with her ovum, created the physical body that Jesus indwelt. HOW this is done, that's between God and ..... God.

Does it deny that Word became flesh?

So, are you saying that the Ovum made the Asexual Reproduction?

I wasn't there nor do I have Mary's medical records. I DO have the Word of God that says that the seed of Eve would bruise the serpent's head. That would mean that Jesus has a physical connection to the human race - more than a being created completely apart from mankind.

So the seed of Eve became flesh, do you mean?

How would you explain the Flesh came from the Word?

I already explained the Seed of Eve means the Surrogate Motherhood, then what is your explanation on the formation of Body of Christ, with the connection with the body of Mary?

 

[Eliyahu]

Who did I make a false accusation against exactly?

You are very much coward and dishonest, and God knows your tricky mind
already.

Didn't you insinuate that I am denying the Messiahood of Jesus as John Hagee does, in the above post like the following?

[Quote:
Originally Posted by annsni
See, I said a REPUTABLE Christian source. Yeah - while I so not agree with you that Mary is the mother of God, she WAS the physical mother of Jesus and I think it's a standard belief of mainstream,historical Christianity.


Yes, last I checked, Hagee's latest book declares that Jesus was not the Messiah prophesied for the Jews.

It is always nice to find common ground Ann. :thumbs:

 

[annsni]

Does it deny that Word became flesh?

So, are you saying that the Ovum made the Asexual Reproduction?

Nope - saying God created a miracle.

So the seed of Eve became flesh, do you mean?

Nah - that was already flesh. It was a cell. What became flesh was the Word - Jesus, the Son of God.

How would you explain the Flesh came from the Word?

I already explained the Seed of Eve means the Surrogate Motherhood, then what is your explanation on the formation of Body of Christ, with the connection with the body of Mary?

3 little letters .... G-O-D

You are very much coward and dishonest, and God knows your tricky mind
already.

Didn't you insinuate that I am denying the Messiahood of Jesus as John Hagee does, in the above post like the following?

No need to calling people names or being paranoid - she was addressing me - and agreeing that Hagee is not a reputable source. She then pointed out something else Hagee said - NOT you.