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Jesus Repudiates Mariolatry
- Thread starter skypair
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
skypair said:
This is a very good point. The text merely says "BLESSED" is Mary -- the response should not have been "ON the CONTRARY" but "Oh YES absolutely! For in blessing her because of her maternal role you are proclaiming the deity of the Christ and reality of the incarnation! That is EXACTLY what you should be doing".
Instead of that response that WOULD have been so popular today the response from Christ is "ON THE CONTRARY...".
How often today do you hear "BLESSED is Mary for she is the one who served as mother to Christ " followed by "ON THE CONTRARY..."???
Hmm - in some churches my guess would be "never"!
Now the question is -- in those churches where Christ's response would not be tolerated - do they also pray TO Mary?
I think that deserves investigation.
in Christ,
Bob
Bound has suggested that Mary is our Ark (Post #32). BobRyan has disputed this and suggested that it is Jesus and not Mary who is our Ark (Post #34). There is plenty of scriptural evidence that Mary should be regarded as the Ark of the New Covenant and it is virtually certain that Luke and John regarded her as such. By way of example, consider the following parallel passages:
Just as the glory of the Lord overshadowed the ark in the tabernacle, the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.
THE ARK: “Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.” Exodus 40:34.
MARY: “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.” Luke 1:35.
* * * * *
THE ARK: When trying to bring the ark up to the city, David said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" 2 Samuel 6:9.
MARY: When Elizabeth greeted Mary she said, “[W]hence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43.
* * * * *
THE ARK: “[T]he ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months.” 2 Samuel 6:11.
MARY: “And Mary abode with her [Elizabeth] about three months.” Luke 1:56.
* * * * *
THE ARK: David was leaping before the ark as it was brought into the city. 2 Samuel 6:16.
MARY: At the sound of Mary’s voice, John leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke 1:44.
* * * * *
THE ARK: “And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament . . . .” Revelation 11:19.
MARY: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” Revelation 12:1 (the very next verse after 11:19).
Now, all this could be coincidental but I doubt it. An historical example of how Mary has served as the Ark for Christians is portrayed in the battle of Lepanto in 1571, arguably the most important naval battle in all of history. The forces assembled by Pope Pius V and commanded by Don Juan of Austria went out to face a much larger, better trained and better equipped Turkish Islamic navy. As the battle raged on the sea throughout the day, Christians throughout Europe prayed the rosary. At the end of the day, the Christian forces were completely victorious, thus preserving Europe as a Christian rather than a Muslim continent. So just as the Ark protected the armies of Israel, Mary interceded to protect the navy of Pius V. As a side note, Lepanto was the last major naval battle in which ships were manned with slave galleys and oars.
Just as the glory of the Lord overshadowed the ark in the tabernacle, the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.
THE ARK: “Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.” Exodus 40:34.
MARY: “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.” Luke 1:35.
* * * * *
THE ARK: When trying to bring the ark up to the city, David said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" 2 Samuel 6:9.
MARY: When Elizabeth greeted Mary she said, “[W]hence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43.
* * * * *
THE ARK: “[T]he ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months.” 2 Samuel 6:11.
MARY: “And Mary abode with her [Elizabeth] about three months.” Luke 1:56.
* * * * *
THE ARK: David was leaping before the ark as it was brought into the city. 2 Samuel 6:16.
MARY: At the sound of Mary’s voice, John leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke 1:44.
* * * * *
THE ARK: “And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament . . . .” Revelation 11:19.
MARY: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” Revelation 12:1 (the very next verse after 11:19).
Now, all this could be coincidental but I doubt it. An historical example of how Mary has served as the Ark for Christians is portrayed in the battle of Lepanto in 1571, arguably the most important naval battle in all of history. The forces assembled by Pope Pius V and commanded by Don Juan of Austria went out to face a much larger, better trained and better equipped Turkish Islamic navy. As the battle raged on the sea throughout the day, Christians throughout Europe prayed the rosary. At the end of the day, the Christian forces were completely victorious, thus preserving Europe as a Christian rather than a Muslim continent. So just as the Ark protected the armies of Israel, Mary interceded to protect the navy of Pius V. As a side note, Lepanto was the last major naval battle in which ships were manned with slave galleys and oars.
Okay Zenas... that post made my jaw drop open.
Very interesting parallels of which have never dawned on me before.
BTW, is any of this the work of that Catholic Theologian Scott Hahn. I have heard he's a contextual genius with regard to the Scriptures and this looks like something he or his students would discover....
Oh, BTW nice plug with Lapanto.... very topical.
Very interesting parallels of which have never dawned on me before.
BTW, is any of this the work of that Catholic Theologian Scott Hahn. I have heard he's a contextual genius with regard to the Scriptures and this looks like something he or his students would discover....
Oh, BTW nice plug with Lapanto.... very topical.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Where in the world do you come up with these notions concerning Mary and Joseph?
Very interesting, Zenas, never thought of that before, thanks.
Bound, I would be inclined to agree with you re the overdevelopment of Marian theology within the RCC; I wouldn't consider the Orthodox practices cited by you as being OTT, just open to misunderstanding and abuse by the average (wo)man in the pew, along with so much else.
Bound, I would be inclined to agree with you re the overdevelopment of Marian theology within the RCC; I wouldn't consider the Orthodox practices cited by you as being OTT, just open to misunderstanding and abuse by the average (wo)man in the pew, along with so much else.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Zenas said:
Yet not ONE single text calling Mary "the ark".
Not ONE single text calling Mary "the mother of God".
Not ONE single text calling Mary "sinless".
Not ONE single text where ANYONE prays to Mary in all of the NT.
By way of example, consider the following parallel passages:
THE ARK: “Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.” Exodus 40:34.
Just as the glory of the Lord overshadowed Christ in the NT.
Matthew 17:2
And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
Matthew 3:16
After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
Matthew 3:17
and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, " This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
John 12:28
" Father, glorify Your name " Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
THE ARK: When trying to bring the ark up to the city, David said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" 2 Samuel 6:9.
The disciples could not believe that Christ was alive and had come to them after His death --
* * * * *
THE ARK: “And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament . . . .” Revelation 11:19.
The Church of God both OT and NT: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.”
1A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
2and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
The Red Dragon, Satan working through pagan Rome
4
And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. The Male Child, Christ birth and resurrection, The church persecuted
5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
The Church goes into hiding in the Dark Ages after Christ leaves -
6Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Revelation 12: the very next chapter after 11:19).
Now, all this could be coincidental but I doubt it.
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Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Zenas said:
Good observations. Here is another interesting and strong parallel...
The Old Testament ARK contained the Ten Commandments (tablets), the manna, and the rod of Aaron that budded (Hebrews 9:4)
The New Testament ARK (MARY) bore within herself the WORD of God Incarnate (John 1:1-14), the Living Bread of Heaven (John 6) , and the Branch of David (Jeremiah 23:5; Zechariah 3:8).
If the OT ARK was treated with such reverence, should we honor our Lady (the "Gebirah") Mary, the Theotokos, any less?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Many imaginative applications for Mary exist today - that were never stated in scripture.
The question is - are those who imagine that "blessed Mary" is to be venerated in some way -- really accepting Christ's own Words on this subject?
This is a very good point. The text merely says "BLESSED" is Mary -- the response should not have been "ON the CONTRARY" but "Oh YES absolutely! For in blessing her because of her maternal role you are proclaiming the deity of the Christ and reality of the incarnation! That is EXACTLY what you should be doing".
Instead of that response that WOULD have been so popular today the response from Christ is "ON THE CONTRARY...".
How often today do you hear "BLESSED is Mary for she is the one who served as mother to Christ " followed by "ON THE CONTRARY..."???
Hmm - in some churches my guess would be "never"!
Now the question is -- in those churches where Christ's response would not be tolerated - do they also pray TO Mary?
I think that deserves investigation.
The question is - are those who imagine that "blessed Mary" is to be venerated in some way -- really accepting Christ's own Words on this subject?
This is a very good point. The text merely says "BLESSED" is Mary -- the response should not have been "ON the CONTRARY" but "Oh YES absolutely! For in blessing her because of her maternal role you are proclaiming the deity of the Christ and reality of the incarnation! That is EXACTLY what you should be doing".
Instead of that response that WOULD have been so popular today the response from Christ is "ON THE CONTRARY...".
How often today do you hear "BLESSED is Mary for she is the one who served as mother to Christ " followed by "ON THE CONTRARY..."???
Hmm - in some churches my guess would be "never"!
Now the question is -- in those churches where Christ's response would not be tolerated - do they also pray TO Mary?
I think that deserves investigation.
BobRyan said:
Sorry BobRyan. I'm just not understanding what you are asking. I know you've posted these questions a couple of time and I recognize they are valuable in making your argument against the historical veneration of Mary, The Birth-giver of God.
If I could just remark, off the cuff, I'm not convinced that your or Skypair's criticism is justified toward Mary with the passages quoted. I say this because it is not Mary's 'flesh' which should be praised but Mary's Fiat. Both you and Skypair 'assumed' that our Lord discarded His mother with these remarks but I would argue that He was drawing attention to what was of greater importance and it wasn't her womb or her breast which should have been praised but in fact her trust and faith in God to do unto her what He said. It was Mary's Fiat which is to be praised and her deep trust and faith which should be imitated by the faithful.
That being said I don't believe Catholicism fully recognizes this fact as they classic teaching, due in large part to an over-emphasis of Augustinian Anthropology, is forced , by their own twisted logic, to assume an immaculate conception with regard to Mary which practically voids her fiat as meritus.
So, on the one hand, I am in agreement with your and Skypair's criticism but on the other I believe you allow your frustration with Catholic doctrine to blind you to the real reasons we call Mary Blessed.
I'd love to attack this subject further with the time and effort it truly deserves but I'm pressed for time.
Peace and God Bless!
I don't know the source of these insights, but I found it in a Wikipedia article when I was doing some research on what happened to the Ark of the Covenant. Incidentally, I agree that Scott Hahn has produced some brilliant work in matters pertaining to Scripture.bound said:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
bound said:
Wonderful- so you would have said in response to "blessed be Mary the mother of Christ" ... "On the contrary blessed be the fiat of Mary not simply her motherhood".
Great -- Now what was Christ's "Actual" response?
Would HIS form of "ON the CONTRARY" response be tolerated in churches that DO venerate Mary's MOTHERHOOD relationship to Jesus?
Have you ever seen them even ATTEMPT that scenario from Matt 12?
Fine- please point to the text itself and show that Jesus mentioned Mary's fiat
Fine- quote the text and show that Jesus said that the people should "immitate Mary's fiat".
My point here is that the actual words of Christ's actual response would not be tolerated in the churches today that venerate Mary.
in Christ,
Bob
Please first give your definition of the term 'pray'.BobRyan said:
I would remark that any ark-Mary similarities would be for OLD TESTAMENT signs -- not for NEW TESTAMENT appropriation. A they had Passover -- we have Easter sort of thing, guys.Doubting Thomas said:
In fact, it is VERY dangerous to apply OT practice to new covenant religion.
skypair
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Where in the world did you come up with that? Matthew and Luke show the ancestral documentation of the Messiah through the father of Jesus, Joseph. If the lineage could not have came through the seed of Joseph, and Joseph’s lineage could not have sat on the throne, how could have Jesus been the Messiah?
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