Jesus Repudiates the Mariolatry Volume III

[Eliyahu]

I have already cut and pasted your post calling me a hypocrit, defended a Catholic you were calling names, and now you are lying about me. I don't pretend to be anything. Go back and read the posts, none of this was initiated by myself, nor did I bring up the word foolish.

Now please, let's be adults, let's let it go.

Sorry, maybe I should have looked at your posts. Don't usually read others profiles or look at their posts when I reply. I still would have replied similarly.

You are quite slick and tricky continuously denying what you said before.

Read the post above which you posted.

 

[Eliyahu]

Joe,

Read your post No 140, as follows:

Eliyah,

1. I didn't point out any specific person.

The identity was clear. I can't refer back to it because it was edited as offensive.

2. I used the same language. It is their choice if they still choose the path of either foolish or heretick which are mentioned in the Bible.
As it is your choice to be foolish. I suggest you look inward.

Was Apostle Paul a hypocrite?
Let's not change the subject

Are the Bible writers not allowed on this board?
???

Are you denying what you said before yet?

 

[Eliyahu]

I have already cut and pasted your post calling me a hypocrit, defended a Catholic you were calling names, and now you are lying about me. I don't pretend to be anything. Go back and read the posts, none of this was initiated by myself, nor did I bring up the word foolish.

Now please, let's be adults, let's let it go.

Sorry, maybe I should have looked at your posts. Don't usually read others profiles or look at their posts when I reply. I still would have replied similarly.

Where do I lie to you?

Then are you claiming to be Adults? Still contradictory to what you are behaving !

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

If you have a problem with another member, please work it out via PM instead of on the open forum.

It is hard to show someone else the Truth if we are fighting among each other and it also hijacks the thread...

Thanks and Merry Christmas!
§ue

 

[BobRyan]

In "theory" this is supposed to be a discussion between those sympathetic to some of the foundation principles of mariolotry and those opposed to them.

I believe both Joe and Eliyahu are opposed to Mariolotry so not sure what the fuss is about. We can be nice to each other AND we can be nice to Catholic-ish members as well.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

We can be nice to each other AND we can be nice to Catholic-ish members as well.

From your mouth to the ears of God. :1_grouphug:

 

[BobRyan]

In our family Christmas tradition we read through the nativity story and sing Christmas carols Christmas morning.

Today is the day!

In going through the details in the Angel announcement to Mary - the Angel does not make it appear that God is "being born" but rather that God is causing this birth and is giving this gift to mankind.

We know that Christ is "the God-man" but you would not know it from the message that the Angel gives to Mary. We know it from other texts that make it explicitly clear that "the Word was with God and the Word WAS God" (for example.) and from the statement of Thomas "My Lord AND My GOD"

However the language of the Angel makes it appear that the giver of this gift is God -- but not that the gift itself is God.

In all cases when it comes to the participation of Mary - as parent and as a biologically necessary part of this story - it is God giving the gift not "God being born" or "God having a mother" this is because it is a story about INCARNATION as well as biological human birth.

28And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
29But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.
30The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.
31"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
32"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."
34Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"
35The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
36"And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month.
37"For nothing will be impossible with God."


The angel appears to be very careful to frame the biological and parenting role of Mary with respect to Jesus as the birth of the "child" a "gift from GOD" who causes this to happen. NOT as "the birth of GOD - making Mary the mother of God". When we build the case for the deity of Christ we do not go to the words of the Angel for they only convey the miracle of the Messiah's birth as a direct act of God without normal relations between man and woman. To "get the goods" the "explicit details" that the Messiah is not merely a deliverer promised by God but IS HIMSELF God -- we need the actual statements of scripture to that effect rather than trying to "read it into" what the Angel is saying here.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[annsni]

Yes, God died in the form of man.

Wow - so the world was without God for 3 days. That's quite unBiblical.

How do you know? Have you ever prayed to Mary? If so, did you even pray to her long enough tos ee if it would work? If not, how can you say something doesn't work when you haven't tried it?



Members of the RCC and other liturgically based religions don't worship her. They simply honor (venerate) her.

How do you know members of the RCC and other liturgically based religions worship her? Have you spent sufficient time around these people and their prayers to her and whatnot to know they actually worship Mary? Probably not. Therefore, how can Catholics and other liturgically based Christians worship her?

If you want to know why Catholics and memebrs of other liturgically nased religions do what they do and say what they say when it comes to Mary then you need to go to them, ask them, learn from them instead of going off what others of your kind say in that it's wromg and whatnot.

Oh - I know what Catholics believe. I'm a former Catholic and my family was very heavily Catholic and some still are. Our best friends are Catholic - he's an ordained deacon (was ordained a few months after my husband was ordained as a Baptist minister) and she's a cantor. I have 6 years of Catholic school - from 7th through 12th grades. I live in a predominately Catholic area. I know what Catholics believe. Trust me.

Oh and as for not worshiping Mary?? The American Heritage Dictionary defines worship as:

wor·ship (wûr'shĭp) Pronunciation Key
n.

1.
1. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
2. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
2. Ardent devotion; adoration.


That sounds like just what you're saying about Mary. Sorry - she was a great woman who loved the Lord and had the privilege of raising the man Jesus but she is NOT the mother of God and she is not worthy to be prayed to, venerated or anything else that is done to her.

 

[Frogman]

The Son of God, not Mary

35The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Pretty clear to me.:wavey:

bro. Dallas

 

[Linda64]

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Pretty clear to me also! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

In the book of Luke the term "Son of God" occurs 6 times. In Chapter 3:38 it is with reference to Adam.

Obviously the term does not always convey the meaning of Deity. We DO have texts that clearly do that for Christ - but simply saying "son of God" is not enough by itself to establish that doctrine.

The point is that in the Angel's message to Mary nothing even comes close to calling her "Mother of God"

 

[Eliyahu]

I would summarize the Mariolatry which may repeat some of the points again.

1. Mary, the Mother of God
No one can claim the theory of Mother of God unless she or he is obsessed with the devout goddess worship, because it contradicts Divine Trinity.
Mother of God theory started from Divine Trinty but it contradicts Divine Trinity again.

1) Mary is neither Mother of God the Father nor the Mother of God the Holy Spirit.
God the Father cannot be "the God" in the very phrase of Mother of God.

One may claim Mary is Mother of 1/3 Godheads, Mother of God the Son, but it is limited to a certain time after the birth of Jesus while the Divinity of God ( God the Son) is eternal. Moreover the divinity of Jesus was not produced by Mary. The Deity of God the Son was not given birth to by Mary, but it existed before Mary was born.

2) Nobody in the Bible called her like that.
3) Instead, the Hebrews writer denies Mother of Son of God ( Heb 7:1-5)
4) John, James, Paul, Jude, Peter must have outlived Mary, but none of them called Mary as Mother of God.

2. Immaculate Conception:
All human race are sinners, and everyone of Adam's race was born sinners. ( Romans 3:10-23)
Some Roman Catholics claim that Mary was protected from sins.
If anyone can be protected from the sins, why didn't God allow it to all the people on this earth?
If anyone can be protected from the sins without the Blood of Jesus, why didn't God apply that method to all the human beings so that His beloved Son wouldn't have to die the terrible death?
Why did Mary rejoice in her Savior ? ( Luke 1:47)
Why couldn't the Immaculate Mary understand what Jesus was telling to her? ( Luke 2:50)

3. Assumption of Mary

Why does the Bible keep silence about it?
Apostle John may have taken care of her during the rest of her life. Why does he keep silence about her in Gospel JOhn, Epistle John 1, 2, 3, Revelation? Was it because the assumption was so trivial thing to mention? Then why so many people are taught to believe it?
John, Paul, James, Jude, Peter must have outlived Mary, but they keep silence about her ascension, why?

4. Queen of Heaven

Where is such title in the Bible?
We can find this only in the paganism mentioned by Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 44
15 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying, 16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee. 17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. 18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. 19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men

Calling Mary the Queen of Heaven will bring the blessings to the people?

But God says this:

12 And I will take the remnant of Judah, that have set their faces to go into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, and they shall all be consumed, and fall in the land of Egypt; they shall even be consumed by the sword and by the famine: they shall die, from the least even unto the greatest, by the sword and by the famine: and they shall be an execration, and an astonishment, and a curse, and a reproach.

5. Statue of Mary

This is apparently Idol prohibited in the Bible so many times. If you disagree, please check Deuteronomy 4 and Isaiah 42-48, and many other OT Bibles and Revelation 16-18.

16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, 18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: 19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

6. Mary, Mother of Church

Where is such heresy stated in the Bible?

Read Galatians 4:22-31, which tells us our mother is the Jerusalem symbolizing Sarah
Gal 4:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Church is called the Bride of Christ ( Eph 5:22-25), if Mary is mother of Church, what is the relationship between Mary and Christ?

Church - Mary : Child and Mother, Mary herself is the Church ( Catholicism)
Church and Christ : Bride and Bridegroom ( Eph 5:20-25)
Mary and Christ ? - Jesus' mother becomes Bride of Christ ?


7. Prayer to Mary

Can she accept the prayers from 1.3 billion people all over the world, for 2000 years?

Why couldn't she understand what Jesus was telling her ( Luke 2:50)?

Is Mary Omni-present? She must be busy then ! Can she understand the prayers from various countries in hundreds of languages? Mary must listen to all the prayers from all over the world, from 1.3 Billion Roman Catholics. Only God can be OMnipresent to listen to the prayers from all over the world, for 2000 years !

When did the capacity of Mary explode such? Only in the minds of the goddess worshippers ! Devout goddess worshippers !

 

[BobRyan]

The Heb 7 argument that Christ was "without Mother" could ONLY apply to the God aspect of Christ -- not to the human biological context. And as you point out this firmly contradicts the "mother of God" mariolotry so common today.

 

[bound]

Bound,

I knew you couldn't answer my question by Yes or No. I just enjoyed your various excuses, then you are blaming me on the contrary. Your logic got into the impasse started from Human Syllogism which is just a quagmire when it encounters divine Trinity.

When one uses a syllogism, it is only as true as the reality it reflects. Suggesting that Mary is 'not' the Mother of the Person Jesus Christ and that Person is not the unity of both Divine and Human Natures unravels our whole faith in Jesus as Lord.

You started to speak confidently Mother of God, but such confidence disappear when I asked the question " Is Mary the Mother of God the Father?" If it is really truth, why not answer ?

Because there are 'truly' three persons of the Holy Trinity and 'each' of these persons are 'all' equally God. If even 'one' of them dwelt within the womb of Mary then 'truly' God 'whole and complete' was present in her, bodily. In your attempt to undermine Mary as the Theotokos you are undermining the very Doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

When you said, Mother of God, shouldn't it be applicable to Mother of God the Father as well? Did she become the real Mother to the God the Father? YOu are evading the question by the nature of Trinity. Did Mary give birth to God the Father as well? I ask that question because you may say, the Godheads is not divisible in Oneness. Why don't you boldly say that God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit were born by Mary? and Trinity God sucked the breast of Mary? The Goddess is like that !!!!

Let me turn the question around on you. What of the Nature of God is lacking in the Second Person of the Holy Trinity? If you do not agree that 'nothing' was lacking of the Nature of God within the Second Person of the Holy Trinity then your argument is mute for 'truly' God dwelt among us bodily.

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

 

[mrtumnus]

There is not one command in the Word of God that says we are to pray to Mary. As a matter of fact, if we were allowed to pray to Mary, Jesus would have told us so in the Model prayer; in which He said:

After this manner, pray ye:

Our Father, which art in Heaven.
Hallowed be Thy name....

The prayer is to be to the Father, not Mary. Any prayer not to the Father is against the Lord's command.

Jesus said in another place:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

If we were supposed to pray to Mary, Jesus Himself would have told us to. But, since He did not, nor did any of the Apostles, we know any who try to deceive you into praying to Mary are bringing you a message that is not of God.

They are bringing you another Gospel than that which we have received and preached... they, according to God's infallible Word, are anathema.

Do you interpret these verses to mean you should not pray to Jesus directly either, but only to the Father? Because I've read some interpretations where people say that to pray directly to Jesus is not taught anywhere in scripture, and therefore all prayers must be offered to the Father.

 

[bound]

The Heb 7 argument that Christ was "without Mother" could ONLY apply to the God aspect of Christ -- not to the human biological context. And as you point out this firmly contradicts the "mother of God" mariolotry so common today.

There is not 'aspect' in Christ but 'two Natures in unity'. Such loose terms undermine the serousness we need to exercise when speaking of the Incarnation in order to understand it in continuity with the rest of Christianity throughout history.

 

[BobRyan]

In Heb 7 "HE IS WITHOUT MOTHER" is it your argument that biologically Mary is NOT Jesus' mother? I can hardly believe you would say that.

So IF she is BIOLOGICALLY his Mother as pertains to his HUMAN nature - then the ONLY aspect in which she is NOT His Mother is in respect to His God-nature.

There is no escaping this in Heb 7.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Joe]

Hi mrtumnus

Hope you had a blessed Christmas

My feeling is if there is any question at all about whether it is scriptural to pray to Mary then just avoid it. Our salvation is worth it! There are consequences to adding to the scriptures and promoting false doctrine

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecyof this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book" (Rev. 22: 18).

 

[mrtumnus]

Hi mrtumnus

Hope you had a blessed Christmas

My feeling is if there is any question at all about whether it is scriptural to pray to Mary then just avoid it. Our salvation is worth it! There are consequences to adding to the scriptures and promoting false doctrine

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecyof this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book" (Rev. 22: 18).

So would you therefore conclude you shouldn't pray to Jesus directly either? I have read this position from some, for much the same reasons as you describe -- it isn't explictly expressed in Scripture, whereas prayer to the Father is.

My Christmas was very blessed, and I hope yours was the same.

 

[Joe]

So would you therefore conclude you shouldn't pray to Jesus directly either?

Thanks, I had a great Christmas at my parents house. No, I wouldn't. It condradicts scripture which tells us exactly the means to get through to our Creator. Prayer is a gift created by our Creator for us to use to communicate with our Creator. I wouldn't take any liberties otherwise.

Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the light, no one goes to the Father except through me"

Read that several times. It get's straight to the point. There is only one avenue of truth, only one light, and only one way to communicate with our Creator.