Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me.” ~ John 12:32

[Scott Downey]

Draw all what? How about draw all God calls. Those God has foreknown as His.
What Does it Mean, “If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me”? – Grace Online Library
Explains it well enough here. And does not nullify Christ's words by saying all means every single person.

Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” ~ John 12:32
Note that the word “men” is not in the original Greek text; it is a translator’s addition. So He draws all of something, but what? It cannot be all “men” (humans) who ever were or will be, because at the time He says this, there are already untold millions that have passed into eternity, and many unto condemnation. Then does it mean absolutely all humans ever from now on? But that cannot be either, because it took centuries for the Gospel to spread out of the Middle East, and even today there are unreached people. During that time, many more have passed away without being drawn to Him. Yet Jesus Himself tells who the drawn ones are:
John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Therefore, those who are drawn are all that do in fact come to Jesus. They come to Him because God has opened their heart and taught them.

 

[HankD]

Draw all what? How about draw all God calls. Those God has foreknown as His.
What Does it Mean, “If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me”? – Grace Online Library
Explains it well enough here. And does not nullify Christ's words by saying all means every single person.

Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” ~ John 12:32
Note that the word “men” is not in the original Greek text; it is a translator’s addition. So He draws all of something, but what? It cannot be all “men” (humans) who ever were or will be, because at the time He says this, there are already untold millions that have passed into eternity, and many unto condemnation. Then does it mean absolutely all humans ever from now on? But that cannot be either, because it took centuries for the Gospel to spread out of the Middle East, and even today there are unreached people. During that time, many more have passed away without being drawn to Him. Yet Jesus Himself tells who the drawn ones are:
John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Therefore, those who are drawn are all that do in fact come to Jesus. They come to Him because God has opened their heart and taught them.

so - I have lost track of the many attempts over the years here at the BB to sabotage (IMO) what this passage is actually saying and why those of a certain theological interpretation (TULIP) are so frightened by its plain teaching which has IMO not violated by the KJB English.

The Spirit of God draws ALL humanity to Christ. SOME come WILLINGLY SOME make an attempt or are attracted but ultimately fail. Some are given no further guides to the light of regenesis.

these are the 3 seeds which ultimately fail of Matthew 13:3 - 9.

I am not a C, but if I were then i would say that those who fail are part of the greater plan to glorify God in their "failure".

2 examples of gospel "failures" are Felix and Agrippa - Book of Acts

Acts 24
24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

Acts 26
27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[Scott Downey]

Since your not a C, you will not be making sense of scripture in a consistent manner.

The drawing means God does not let go someone He has foreknown as His, the truth is His word accomplishes its purpose.
When God draws people come to Him and believe.

Your example of Agrippa and Felix prove God did not draw them, as they never came to the faith.
But Paul could not know who they would turn out to be, so you witness to all, and God does the drawing irresistibly, but only for those He knows as His own, otherwise it makes no logical sense that God can say anything about the future events before their births, if a man determines for himself to believe or not. And if you believe that, you do not believe in an Almighty God who transcends time, you make God subject to time.

So you must logically deny then that God wrote down in His book all of our days before we existed, At that time only existing in the mind of God. And also deny many other scriptures that point to God not only knowing the future, but directing what will occur in the future.

13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
When as yet there were none of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
When as yet there were none of them.

 

[HankD]

Since your not a C, you will not be making sense of scripture in a consistent manner.

The drawing means God does not let go someone He has foreknown as His, the truth is His word accomplishes its purpose.
When God draws people come to Him and believe.

Your example of Agrippa and Felix prove God did not draw them, as they never came to the faith.
But Paul could not know who they would turn out to be, so you witness to all, and God does the drawing irresistibly, but only for those He knows as His own, otherwise it makes no logical sense that God can say anything about the future events before their births, if a man determines for himself to believe or not. And if you believe that, you do not believe in an Almighty God who transcends time, you make God subject to time.

So you must logically deny then that God wrote down in His book all of our days before we existed, At that time only existing in the mind of God. And also deny many other scriptures that point to God not only knowing the future, but directing what will occur in the future.

13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
When as yet there were none of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
When as yet there were none of them.

you have made your self a false accuser towards me brother. i said one thing i was not, but not what i am apart from giving scripture,

the essence of your error is shown by one of your statements "it makes no logical sense" as if our GOD was an obedient servant to even LOGIC which HE often delights in defying. e.g. "What is man, that thou art mindful of him?".

 

[Iconoclast]

Of course you have offered a correct interpretation, along with the idea of not the Jew only.
Those who desire to oppose will ignore the facts and suggest that God draws everyone,lol

 

[37818]

What Christ was to do on the cross. John 12:33, ". . . This He said, signifying what death He should die." Whether one understands "all" men to mean all men or just all His elect.

 

[Scott Downey]

you have made your self a false accuser towards me brother. i said one thing i was not, but not what i am apart from giving scripture,

the essence of your error is shown by one of your statements "it makes no logical sense" as if our GOD was an obedient servant to even LOGIC which HE often delights in defying. e.g. "What is man, that thou art mindful of him?".

Scripture is written to people, and meant to be comprehended, but only by Spirit enabled people who God has opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and even logically when it is not speaking of visions or parables which must be interpreted. God is not the author of confusion.
Most people have emotional issues with Calvinism, and accuse Calvinists of worshiping an evil God. I have yet to see someone who is not Calvinist treat Calvinism with anything except disdain or contempt.

 

[Reformed]

Boy, O boy. This is one of those passages that inflame passions. I am not going to participate in a long protracted debate but I will make a few comments before making a graceful exit.

@Scott Downey is correct that the word men or people are not in the original Greek. John literally wrote Jesus' words as, "I will draw all to myself".

John 12:32 καγὼ ἐὰν ὑψωθῶ ἐκ τῆς γῆς, πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν.

It is true that we often see what we want to see and when it comes to biblical interpretation that saying rings true.

The late Leon Morris had interesting comments on this passage of scripture:

"We must take the expression accordingly to mean that all those who are to be drawn will be drawn. That is to say, that Christ is not affirming that the whole world would be saved. He is affirming that all who are to be saved will be saved in this way. And he is speaking of a universal rather than a narrow nationalistic religion. The death of Christ would be an end to particularism. By virtue of that death 'all men' and not the Jews alone would be drawn. And they would be drawn only by the virtue of that death." (Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, p. 598-599)

Of course, John 12 does not stand by itself. It must be looked at within the entire Johannian narrative. John 6:35-40 is instructive.

John 6:35-40 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

The notes in the NET Bible do a good job explaining this passage:

"These people’s lack of faith did not indicate that Jesus or God’s plan had failed, however. The ability to believe on Jesus requires divine enablement. It is only those whom the Father enables to believe that come to Jesus in faith. These are the people whom the Father has given to the Son as gifts. Jesus viewed the ultimate cause of faith as God’s electing grace, not man’s choice.

Jesus promised not to turn away anyone who came to Him in faith. He used a figure of speech (litotes) to stress strongly the positive fact that all who believe in Him find acceptance and security. In litotes the speaker or writer affirms a positive truth by negating its opposite. For example, “This is no small matter,” is a litotes meaning, “This is a very significant matter.” In the first part of this verse Jesus spoke of the elect as a group, and in the second part He referred to every individual in the group. Jesus had confidence in the Father drawing the elect to Him, and the believer may have confidence too in the Son receiving and retaining him or her. How can a person know if he or she is one of the elect? Let him or her come to Jesus in faith."

Is this just a Calvinistic interpretation of John? I suppose that depends on which side of the debate you identify with. Regardless of which side you are on it is an interpretation that depends on the text alone. If it infers anything it does so in John 12:32 when the word "men" or "people" is omitted. This is when we must look at the entire narrative and see whether there is a theme that provides a consistent guide. What both sides in the debate must do is avoid confirmation bias.

These are my thoughts and I throw them out there for observation and consideration.

 

[Scott Downey]

To be consistent and not nullify Christ's words in John 6, the drawing as in many places Christ mentions all that the Father will give ME, refers to those God foreknew as His people, and it is they whom God draws and grants that they come to Christ.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


John 10:27-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” (all the peoples God gives to Christ)

John 17:2as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

John 17:7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.

John 17:10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

Hebrews 2:13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children (whom God gave Christ) have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, (no salvation for angels) but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. (Those God gives Him, who are the called as Issac was a promised child of God given to Abraham)

17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, (the children God gave Christ) that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (the people God gave Christ are atoned for with all of their sins forgiven them, while the world dies in their sins)

18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted. (the children God gives Him need His help to salvation, as those who are of the world never obtain salvation, which is only for the people of God)

 

[HankD]

To be consistent and not nullify Christ's words in John 6, the drawing as in many places Christ mentions all that the Father will give ME, refers to those God foreknew as His people, and it is they whom God draws and grants that they come to Christ.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


John 10:27-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” (all the peoples God gives to Christ)

John 17:2as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

John 17:7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.

John 17:10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

Hebrews 2:13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children (whom God gave Christ) have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, (no salvation for angels) but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. (Those God gives Him, who are the called as Issac was a promised child of God given to Abraham)

17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, (the children God gave Christ) that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (the people God gave Christ are atoned for with all of their sins forgiven them, while the world dies in their sins)

18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted. (the children God gives Him need His help to salvation, as those who are of the world never obtain salvation, which is only for the people of God)

i personally have no objection to anything in this post except the presumption that we know the criteria of the selection of the elect.

although i am neither C nor A my feeling is that we don't know GOD's criteria for the selection of the elect.
i.e. ok so the elect are sent to Christ - however - how were the elect selected in terms of criteria?

think about it - if the selection was made in eternity then C AND A are the same thing except Arminianism gives the criteria - in eternity God saw who would accept Christ if they could and therefore empowered them to become the sons of God.
Calvin - a decree - no criteria. this was the rift between C and A in the beginning (Dr Cassidy - at home with the LORD).

Dr Cassidy (in heaven) and I and others debated this theory here and so it was decided (FWIW).
GOD IN ETERNITY SAW OUR HOPELESS, HELPLESS ESTATE AND IN ETERNITY SELECTED THE ELECT BY AN UNDISCLOSED CRITERIA. iN TERMS OF C OR A - FOREKNOWLEDGE OR DECREE.

but even at that no mater which, we unfortunately have reduced it to tribalism some of us with the nastiness thereof.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

So personally i feel its better not to take sides, there CANT BE sides in Christ unless we have constructed them with wood hay and stubble.

regeneration combined with the fruit of the Spirit i personally find in both camps - as a mugwump i can fellowship with either (so can we - or should - we all).

 

[Revmitchell]

Scripture is written to people, and meant to be comprehended, but only by Spirit enabled people who God has opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and even logically when it is not speaking of visions or parables which must be interpreted. God is not the author of confusion.
Most people have emotional issues with Calvinism, and accuse Calvinists of worshiping an evil God. I have yet to see someone who is not Calvinist treat Calvinism with anything except disdain or contempt.

Naa...we dont have near as much a problem with calvinism as we do some calvinists

 

[Scott Downey]

God made His choice in eternity past, from before the beginning of the world, whom He would save with His great love.
So the decree was love, mercy and compassion shown to some for His own purpose and will, Ephesians tells us so. This is known as the mystery of His will.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

And of course God tells Moses this which Paul uses in Romans

Exodus 33:19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you.
I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

According to His purpose and will, God chose to whom to show His goodness.

 

[InTheLight]

Draw all what? How about draw all God calls. Those God has foreknown as His.
What Does it Mean, “If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me”? – Grace Online Library
Explains it well enough here. And does not nullify Christ's words by saying all means every single person.

Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” ~ John 12:32
Note that the word “men” is not in the original Greek text; it is a translator’s addition. So He draws all of something, but what? It cannot be all “men” (humans) who ever were or will be, because at the time He says this, there are already untold millions that have passed into eternity, and many unto condemnation. Then does it mean absolutely all humans ever from now on? But that cannot be either, because it took centuries for the Gospel to spread out of the Middle East,

#1

"All men" does not mean "all" or "men".

 

[InTheLight]

Since your not a C, you will not be making sense of scripture in a consistent manner.

#5

You are not smart enough to understand the doctrines of grace.

 

[InTheLight]

To be consistent and not nullify Christ's words in John 6, the drawing as in many places Christ mentions all that the Father will give ME, refers to those God foreknew as His people, and it is they whom God draws and grants that they come to Christ.

I think I get it now. When Christ says he will draw all men, he didn't mean "all men", he really meant only the elect that he foreknew from before the foundation of the world.

And since you said,

at the time He says this, there are already untold millions that have passed into eternity, and many unto condemnation. Then does it mean absolutely all humans ever from now on? But that cannot be either, because it took centuries for the Gospel to spread out of the Middle East,

God condemned millions and millions of people to Hell because he didn't send Christ to die sooner and he didn't (couldn't?) spread the gospel fast enough once Jesus had been resurrected. He picked out the Elect from eternity past and that is a finite number of people and if you're not in that group, you are going to Hell.

Therefore, you don't believe in missionaries.

 

[Revmitchell]

#5

You are not smart enough to understand the doctrines of grace.

Well except he did not say doctrines of grace. He said if we are not calvinist we are to stupid to understand scripture. To me it sounds like he is saying we are not saved

 

[InTheLight]

Well except he did not say doctrines of grace. He said if we are not calvinist we are to stupid to understand scripture. To me it sounds like he is saying we are not saved

Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Reformed]

although i am neither C nor A my feeling is that we don't know GOD's criteria for the selection of the elect.

The only criteria we know is what scripture reveals.

Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will

Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Thankfully, that is all we need to know; that God's selection of the Elect is according to the counsel of His will. How does someone know if they are elect? By believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[MB]

Draw all what? How about draw all God calls. Those God has foreknown as His.
What Does it Mean, “If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me”? – Grace Online Library
Explains it well enough here. And does not nullify Christ's words by saying all means every single person.

Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” ~ John 12:32
Note that the word “men” is not in the original Greek text; it is a translator’s addition. So He draws all of something, but what? It cannot be all “men” (humans) who ever were or will be, because at the time He says this, there are already untold millions that have passed into eternity, and many unto condemnation. Then does it mean absolutely all humans ever from now on? But that cannot be either, because it took centuries for the Gospel to spread out of the Middle East, and even today there are unreached people. During that time, many more have passed away without being drawn to Him. Yet Jesus Himself tells who the drawn ones are:
John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Therefore, those who are drawn are all that do in fact come to Jesus. They come to Him because God has opened their heart and taught them.

The word all has been argued to death here and you'd be adding to scripture to say it means a certain group. You deny all can be drawn because of your false doctrine. Every man knows about God. and they have no excuse.
Rom 1:19 Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest it to them,
Rom 1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead—to their being inexcusable;
John 12:32 says what it says whether you believe it or not. It means all because all is all inclusive.
Only ignorance would cause you to doubt it.
MB

 

[MB]

God made His choice in eternity past, from before the beginning of the world, whom He would save with His great love.
So the decree was love, mercy and compassion shown to some for His own purpose and will, Ephesians tells us so. This is known as the mystery of His will.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

And of course God tells Moses this which Paul uses in Romans

Exodus 33:19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you.
I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

According to His purpose and will, God chose to whom to show His goodness.

Why not prove your election bet you can't.
MB