Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me.” ~ John 12:32

[HankD]

Thankfully, that is all we need to know; that God's selection of the Elect is according to the counsel of His will. How does someone know if they are elect? By believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[atpollard]

Why not prove your election bet you can't.

Of course he can, the same way that anyone PROVES their election ... by dying and being Glorified! (It just will not help the topic or C & A debate.)

 

[Iconoclast]

To be consistent and not nullify Christ's words in John 6, the drawing as in many places Christ mentions all that the Father will give ME, refers to those God foreknew as His people, and it is they whom God draws and grants that they come to Christ.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


John 10:27-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” (all the peoples God gives to Christ)

John 17:2as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

John 17:7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.

John 17:10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

Hebrews 2:13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children (whom God gave Christ) have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, (no salvation for angels) but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. (Those God gives Him, who are the called as Issac was a promised child of God given to Abraham)

17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, (the children God gave Christ) that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (the people God gave Christ are atoned for with all of their sins forgiven them, while the world dies in their sins)

18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted. (the children God gives Him need His help to salvation, as those who are of the world never obtain salvation, which is only for the people of God)

No one will reply to these fine verses. There are no replies of substance coming anytime soon.

 

[HankD]

No one will reply to these fine verses. There are no replies of substance coming anytime soon.

that's because both C and A followers AGREE with these passages.
there was only one difference between C,A. the selection of the elect done in eternity - was it based upon foreknowledge or decree? the rest, at one time and for the most part, was agreed upon.

But ALL KINDS of faith expressions built upon weird doctrinal foundations NOW-A-DAYS get mislabeled as either Calvinism or Arminianism. True there are modified versions of both C/A but in reality its a zoo out there in the Ethernet.

there are other reasons LOTS of folks won't answer.

e.g. for fear of receiving flak which ends in a crash and burn, its not always because of one's opponents prowess and oratory skills.

 

[1689Dave]

If you define ALL with scripture. All = all the Father gave to Jesus. It's a contradiction if you define otherwise.

 

[HankD]

If you define ALL with scripture. All = all the Father gave to Jesus. It's a contradiction if you define otherwise.

thank you for that - even though Jesus didn't qualify the "all" it is a good observation.

 

[HankD]

God made His choice in eternity past, from before the beginning of the world, whom He would save with His great love.
So the decree was love, mercy and compassion shown to some for His own purpose and will, Ephesians tells us so. This is known as the mystery of His will.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

And of course God tells Moses this which Paul uses in Romans

Exodus 33:19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you.
I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

According to His purpose and will, God chose to whom to show His goodness.

still - why does He love only a select few? What is it that makes Him care for the elect but not the others?
Arminius says because He looked and saw certain ones would believe and come to Christ if they had the power to do so, but they being helpless and hopeless He therefore provided that power.

 

[ivdavid]

there was only one difference between C,A. the selection of the elect done in eternity - was it based upon foreknowledge or decree?

I am neither C nor A - so I end up agreeing and disagreeing with either group on different points. I do not agree with the calvinists on predestined/pre-decreed condemnation of the non-elect but isn't pre-decreed salvation of the elect quite clear in Scriptures?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

What I derive from this verse:
1. This is in the context of salvation - for Paul is explaining why God's word seems to have failed with the Israelites except for a remnant (Rom 9:27, Rom 10:1)
2. This is pertaining to individuals - for Paul is using examples of Jacob and Esau to show how God's election works.
3. This is impartial and Sovereign - for Paul insists that the differential does not lie in either Jacob or Esau but in God alone as reiterated in Rom 9:16.

How could the purpose of God not stood by election if it had been after the children had been born and not before - why was it necessary that God elect without considering anything they would do - why must the parenthesis of v.11 be added in Holy Scriptures? It's because it would lead to the charge of partiality in the dispensation of Grace. Now, there are 2 plausible positions for the basis of election - either God bases it on what man is/does or He bases it on just His own sovereign will. If it is based on what man is/does, then God must factor in each man's life through foreknowledge - but v.11 is specifically negating that, therein proving it must be by His own sovereign will. What is the alternate interpretation possible here?

why does He love only a select few? What is it that makes Him care for the elect but not the others?

His selecting a few for a purpose does not in any way imply He does not care or desire the salvation of the others. This is where I disagree with the calvinists. This is like the parable of the workers in the field - If God wishes to pay more to the workers of the last hour, it in no way negates Him being willing to give what is due to the rest. There's an entire thread just to debate this, so I will not digress on this thread.

 

[Van]

To be consistent and not nullify Christ's words in John 6, the drawing as in many places Christ mentions all that the Father will give ME, refers to those God foreknew as His people, and it is they whom God draws and grants that they come to Christ.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


John 10:27-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” (all the peoples God gives to Christ)

John 17:2as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

John 17:7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.

John 17:10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

Hebrews 2:13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children (whom God gave Christ) have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, (no salvation for angels) but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. (Those God gives Him, who are the called as Issac was a promised child of God given to Abraham)

17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, (the children God gave Christ) that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (the people God gave Christ are atoned for with all of their sins forgiven them, while the world dies in their sins)

18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted. (the children God gives Him need His help to salvation, as those who are of the world never obtain salvation, which is only for the people of God)

Hi Scott, if a person is a C, they will not be able to make sense of these verses.

Lets start with John 6:37,

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

And here is an analysis that does make sense:

In this verse "all" only refers to those individuals God "gives" to Christ.
Giving refers to transferring chosen individuals into Christ spiritually.
Thus "come to Me" does not refer to trusting in Christ, but to their spiritual location being changed from not it Christ, to being in Christ.
Why? Because after being "given" and having "come to Christ" they are "in Christ" with the promise Christ will not cast them back out.

Next, John 6:39 requires that "giving" in this context requires it refer to being placed "in Christ" thus will be saved forever and raised on the last day.

Next John 6:45 again uses "all" to refer only to those God "gives" (transfers into Christ.) Everyone who has heard [the gospel of Christ] and has "learned" is transferred into Christ. Learned refers to a person putting their full trust in Christ, as credited by God.

John 10:27-30 says those transferred into Christ become "My Sheep." This passage does not say "the sheep" or "of My sheep."

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” (all the peoples God gives to Christ) Here we have the bogus Calvinist doctrine added to the text in parenthesis. "All" here refers to all those who behold (become aware" of Christ "high and lifted up" (dying for them on the cross) and therefore will be "drawn" (attracted by God's lovingkindness) to Christ. Therefore some of those drawn are given, and all given have been drawn. The bogus view is all that are drawn are given. Not how it reads.

Next we have three verses from John 17, which seem non germane, with the possible bogus intent to conflate things given to Christ such as authority with God transferring individuals into Christ. Nonsense.

Next, the long passage from Hebrews seems to be non-germane.

 

[Iconoclast]

that's because both C and A followers AGREE with these passages.
there was only one difference between C,A. the selection of the elect done in eternity - was it based upon foreknowledge or decree? the rest, at one time and for the most part, was agreed upon.

But ALL KINDS of faith expressions built upon weird doctrinal foundations NOW-A-DAYS get mislabeled as either Calvinism or Arminianism. True there are modified versions of both C/A but in reality its a zoo out there in the Ethernet.

there are other reasons LOTS of folks won't answer.

e.g. for fear of receiving flak which ends in a crash and burn, its not always because of one's opponents prowess and oratory skills.

Hank,
You do offer answers .
If you want to have fun sit with a legal pad or copy and paste some of the answers on each thread.
When you can list 20 responses with no scripture, just mocking, and name calling, that is what I am speaking of

 

[HankD]

Hank,
You do offer answers .
If you want to have fun sit with a legal pad or copy and paste some of the answers on each thread.
When you can list 20 responses with no scripture, just mocking, and name calling, that is what I am speaking of

yes, iconoclast my journey through BB is one of understanding our differences.

truly if i have ruffled feathers i am sorry, though if it were entertainment for you, i am glad

 

[utilyan]

Draw all what? How about draw all God calls. Those God has foreknown as His.
What Does it Mean, “If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me”? – Grace Online Library
Explains it well enough here. And does not nullify Christ's words by saying all means every single person.

Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” ~ John 12:32
Note that the word “men” is not in the original Greek text; it is a translator’s addition. So He draws all of something, but what? It cannot be all “men” (humans) who ever were or will be, because at the time He says this, there are already untold millions that have passed into eternity, and many unto condemnation. Then does it mean absolutely all humans ever from now on? But that cannot be either, because it took centuries for the Gospel to spread out of the Middle East, and even today there are unreached people. During that time, many more have passed away without being drawn to Him. Yet Jesus Himself tells who the drawn ones are:
John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Therefore, those who are drawn are all that do in fact come to Jesus. They come to Him because God has opened their heart and taught them.

So what would the bible have to say if Jesus actually meant ALL MEN as we understand it?

 

[utilyan]

We can see the immediate audience of John 6. Most end up Rejecting a clear offer made to them.

32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.


We can see their objections.

52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”


Calvinist Jesus Simply would have agreed. You guys are correct, I did not come to give you life, I did not come to die for you, I do not offer my flesh to you.


Also Jesus Christ does all the drawing.

 

[utilyan]

Note that the word “men” is not in the original Greek text; it is a translator’s addition.

Note there is no such thing as Greek Calvinists. Because there was simply no fooling them.

 

[Revmitchell]

No one will reply to these fine verses. There are no replies of substance coming anytime soon.

Here is a fine example of the win or lose win and defeat type posts.

 

[37818]

No one will reply to these fine verses. There are no replies of substance coming anytime soon.

Have you not read, ". . . It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. . . ." -- John 6:45. "And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children." -- Isaiah 54:13. "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." -- Jeremiah 31:34.

 

[Scott Downey]

Have you not read, ". . . It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. . . ." -- John 6:45. "And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children." -- Isaiah 54:13. "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." -- Jeremiah 31:34.

Spoken about the children of God, not the children of the devil (world)
The ones who hear are 'of God', John 8, Jesus says those who do not hear are not of the Father. I take that to mean they are not those who are born again. Someone who is born again, is an infant or babe and it is to them the Father reveals the things of God as they are now of God and can listen and hear and respond positively to Christ. The Father reveals the things of God to babes.

Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

You can not believe in Christ if all you are is the old man of the flesh, and have enmity with God. God must change you and He does that by the new birth, otherwise the enmity remains and you will never hear God or believe what Christ says.

Enmity is defined as
en·mi·ty

noun
the state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.
"decades of enmity between the two countries"

When your born again, (begotten again), you are of God and you live according to the Spirit, you have passed from death into life, you have been made alive spiritually to God and possess eternal life. Then afterwards when you believe, (and all who are born of God will believe in Christ), you are sealed by the Spirit as a guarantee for the future redemption of His purchased possession which is you.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[37818]

@Scott Downey,

Being of God precedes being born of God. Calvinist position, as I understand it, regeneration precedes faith. It is my understanding, sanctification of the Spirit precedes faith which pecedes regeneration. Those who resist being sanctified of God's Spirit, resist hearing truth, indicating not being of God for that reason.

 

[HankD]

So what would the bible have to say if Jesus actually meant ALL MEN as we understand it?

for those who already have the witness of the Spirit - not a lot - HOWEVER being desired by those being drawn with their appetite being awakened.

 

[ivdavid]

Giving refers to transferring chosen individuals into Christ spiritually.
Thus "come to Me" does not refer to trusting in Christ, but to their spiritual location being changed from not it Christ, to being in Christ.

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Isn't there parallelism here to equate "coming to Christ" with "believing in Christ" depicted by the equal comparison over hunger and thirst? The way Jesus words this just seems weird as per your interpretation of "come to Me" not referring to "believing in Christ".

Even by your definitions, it gets more confusing.
v.37 becomes - "All that the Father has transferred in Me shall be in Me". Isn't it a redundancy to state this? Obviously, someone transferred in Christ is in Him by that very act of transferring - why draw out a future distinct "shall be" inference from this just to mean one and the same? The act of giving sequentially precedes the act of coming - how is this explained by your interpretation?

Therefore some of those drawn are given, and all given have been drawn.

I can agree with this.

Learned refers to a person putting their full trust in Christ, as credited by God.

I can't quite agree with this.

From John 6:44-45, no man can come unless they have heard and learned, being taught by God. How can learning be equal to believing, when it is the learning of the truth of Christ that leads one to the believing in Him? Aren't these supposed to be held as distinct acts? And isn't this teaching of God that's referred to in John 6:65?

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Here again, believing is paralleled with the coming to Christ in faith. Also, it speaks of a different "giving" to the person by the Father. What didn't the Father give these people that Jesus cites as the reason for their not believing?