Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me.” ~ John 12:32

[ivdavid]

Excuse me I have no idea what you are talking about. Your upset about what I wrote to someone else.? Did I mention your name,? I posted to Scot Downey. Not you. That is unless for some reason you are both people.?
I decided to end the conversation with you because you don't seem to understand simple English. As far as your election it is a proven premise that only Jews are elect and you have not proven other wise.
MB

You're in a debate forum where we are expected not to be touchy being called out for logical fallacies like yours ad nauseam.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Since you do understand simple English, all you have to do is answer how you see the adjectives "holy" and "beloved" being addressed to the gentiles at Colosse but somehow not the adjective "elect", when they're all part of the same grammatical form? You can diss me all you want after explaining this contradiction in your position - I am not here for personal attacks and I will not respond in kind. I will stick to challenging beliefs on fact.

 

[Van]

Close. I disagree with the passive form you use for "be arriving" - it is future active indicative, an action done by the person being given to Christ.

John 6:37 Anyone who the Father gives to Me will arrive at Me, and he coming to(ward) Me I could no never cast out.

This is the closest literal translation i could get to. Do you find any problems with this?

I can't do much if my answering your question gets read as me changing the subject. I was explaining how my interpretation of v.37 finds a person in Christ simply by his "coming to believe in Christ". SNIP

We find ourselves in Christ by believing, rather than being put in Christ by God? Utter nonsense.
We are not called into Christ?
We are not transferred into Christ?
We are not baptized into Christ.

We materialize in Christ?

Your view of John 6:37 says we are given to Christ, but we arrive at Christ by our own doing, then we materialize in Christ, where Christ promises to never cast us out?

My view has God putting us into Christ based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.

 

[Particular]

Excuse me I have no idea what you are talking about. Your upset about what I wrote to someone else.? Did I mention your name,? I posted to Scot Downey. Not you. That is unless for some reason you are both people.?
I decided to end the conversation with you because you don't seem to understand simple English. As far as your election it is a proven premise that only Jews are elect and you have not proven other wise.
MB

MB, the proof is only in your own mind. Everyone else knows you have been proven wrong. Please stop making a false claim that election is only for Jews.

 

[MB]

MB, the proof is only in your own mind. Everyone else knows you have been proven wrong. Please stop making a false claim that election is only for Jews.

It isn't false There are no elect Gentiles if I'm wrong prove it.. I will keep on with the truth because It's what I do.
MB

 

[ivdavid]

We find ourselves in Christ by believing, rather than being put in Christ by God?

What kind of false dichotomy are you raising here? I said we do find ourselves in Christ by believing given that all believers are put in Christ by God.
Why didn't you quote me saying Rebirth in Christ <=> Faith in Christ? Us being born again is us being put in Christ by God. This and believing in Christ are linked together inseparably - where one happens the other happens too. So when I read one, I know the other has happened too. So how is my belief different from yours?

 

[MB]

You're in a debate forum where we are expected not to be touchy being called out for logical fallacies like yours ad nauseam.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Since you do understand simple English, all you have to do is answer how you see the adjectives "holy" and "beloved" being addressed to the gentiles at Colosse but somehow not the adjective "elect", when they're all part of the same grammatical form? You can diss me all you want after explaining this contradiction in your position - I am not here for personal attacks and I will not respond in kind. I will stick to challenging beliefs on fact.

You believe in your own imagination. All you want to do is proclaim I'm wrong yet you have no proof that I am. You post scripture that you clain proves your point but those vereses say nothing to support your false claims. Your ignorance of what you cliam has been refuted and you refuse to accept it.. There are no elect Gentiles.
MB

 

[ivdavid]

You believe in your own imagination. All you want to do is proclaim I'm wrong yet you have no proof that I am. You post scripture that you clain proves your point but those vereses say nothing to support your false claims. Your ignorance of what you cliam has been refuted and you refuse to accept it.. There are no elect Gentiles.
MB

Cool. Once you've cooled down from the dissing, could you answer the question I raised and then continue on with whatever you feel like venting out..

 

[MB]

What kind of false dichotomy are you raising here? I said we do find ourselves in Christ by believing given that all believers are put in Christ by God.
Why didn't you quote me saying Rebirth in Christ <=> Faith in Christ? Us being born again is us being put in Christ by God. This and believing in Christ are linked together inseparably - where one happens the other happens too. So when I read one, I know the other has happened too. So how is my belief different from yours?

This is false as well Jesus does not save anyone unless they Believe in Him first. No Faith No Grace
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
As you should see Grace comes through faith.
Like I said No faith,. No Grace.
MB

 

[MB]

Cool. Once you've cooled down from the dissing, could you answer the question I raised and then continue on with whatever you feel like venting out..

Why is it you think i need to cool down does hearing the truth heat you up. You must not want me telling the truth about Calvinism and it being a false doctrine.
MB

 

[ivdavid]

This is false as well Jesus does not save anyone unless they Believe in Him first. No Faith No Grace
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
As you should see Grace comes through faith.
Like I said No faith,. No Grace.
MB

What are you arguing against? What do you find false specifically? I only said where you find a true believer you will also see that person is put in Christ by God by rebirthing him in the spirit, one accompanies the other - I never specified the sequence of which precedes which since my point here doesn't require that granularity. Do you believe otherwise - that one could come to believe in Christ but God would not secure him in Christ?

 

[ivdavid]

Why is it you think i need to cool down does hearing the truth heat you up. You must not want me telling the truth about Calvinism and it being a false doctrine.
MB

Truth is provided in answering questions that point out contradictions in your belief system. Still no answers. I'm going to stop contributing to this spamming of this thread until there is some new contribution.

 

[Particular]

It isn't false There are no elect Gentiles if I'm wrong prove it.. I will keep on with the truth because It's what I do.
MB

You can make your assertion until you are blue in the face. Your assertion is proven wrong by many on this site. You just won't accept that you are wrong.

 

[MB]

You can make your assertion until you are blue in the face. Your assertion is proven wrong by many on this site. You just won't accept that you are wrong.

If I'm Wrong Prove election is for Gentiles. I know you can't do that because you don't know how.
MB

 

[Particular]

If I'm Wrong Prove election is for Gentiles. I know you can't do that because you don't know how.
MB

It's been proven already by others. You reject it.

Colossians 3:12-17
Put on then, as God’s chosen (elect) ones,

holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:1,4-5 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen (elected) you,

because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord,

because God chose (elected) you as the first fruits to be saved,

through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

 

[ivdavid]

It's been proven already by others. You reject it.

Spare yourself the time. You show a passage to the thessalonians calling them elect, and MB will ask where they're said to be gentiles. You'd go, but they are the thessalonians who are saved, and MB would say they're the jews alone in thessalonica. Which is why it's safe to keep pressing on just Colossians where they're explicitly referred to as gentiles. MB last still said Col 3:12 meant Put on bowels of mercies as the elect do, where that's still the jews and used only a comparison to which you need to point out that this was just one adjective among the other two - holy and beloved, which still describes the Colossians. You do this and MB would go on a repeated assertion trip - this has been the pattern and I would only suggest you reserve your time and energy for better discussions.

 

[JonC]

Six hour warning. This thread will be closed sometime after 10:40 pm EST

 

[Van]

What kind of false dichotomy are you raising here? I said we do find ourselves in Christ by believing given that all believers are put in Christ by God.
Why didn't you quote me saying Rebirth in Christ <=> Faith in Christ? Us being born again is us being put in Christ by God. This and believing in Christ are linked together inseparably - where one happens the other happens too. So when I read one, I know the other has happened too. So how is my belief different from yours?

False dichotomy? Are all believers put in Christ? What about the second and third soil of Matthew 13? They believed superficially, or they continued to treasure worldly things in addition to Christ.

Next you have it backward, only if we are put into Christ are we made alive together with Christ.

Now why are we put in Christ? Because we believed? Nope. Because God credited our faith (belief) as righteousness. There is no automatic transfer into Christ based on our faith.

 

[MB]

It's been proven already by others. You reject it.

Colossians 3:12-17
Put on then, as God’s chosen (elect) ones,

holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:1,4-5 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen (elected) you,

because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord,

because God chose (elected) you as the first fruits to be saved,

through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

You are right those Jews were elect.
MB

 

[Particular]

You are right those Jews were elect.
MB

LOL, I knew you'd be too stubborn to admit you are wrong

 

[Van]

The phrase "come to Me" appears about 14 times in the NASB version of the New Testament. And in 11 of those times the Greek word is a form of G2064, erchomai. In five of those cases, the verb (verbal noun) is used to convey either "come to believe" or "change of location." Thus which meaning in its range of meanings, must be determined by context. In three of the five, the idea seems to be "come to believe" and the other two change of location.

John 5:40 - come to believe
John 6:44 - come to believe
John 6:65 - come to believe
2 Timothy 4:9 - change of location
Titus 3:12 - change of location

So returning now to John 6:37, we have two places where in English we read "come to Me" but as indicated in prior posts, the Greek words convey different meanings. Here is a literal effort at translation:
John 6:37 Anyone who the Father gives to Me will arrive at Me, and the one coming to(ward) Me I will not cast out.

The contextual meaning of arriving "toward," or "at" or "near" Me is an area of dispute. My view is that those given arrive at Christ by God's action. And then, referring to those same people who are given to Christ are the ones moving toward Christ, and they must enter Christ because Christ will not cast them out. Therefore to me it seems unlikely that either of the two places actually mean "come to believe."