they weere not yet sealed/indwelt by the Spireit though, as they had to wait until pentacost correct?
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Jesus said that he will build his Church/ Local Assembly or Body of Christ?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
they weere not yet sealed/indwelt by the Spireit though, as they had to wait until pentacost correct?
Tom Butler
New Member
they weere not yet sealed/indwelt by the Spireit though, as they had to wait until pentacost correct?
Yet this group of pre-Pentecost believers behaved exactly as churches did after Pentecost.
They were empowered by their Founder and Head. The assembled, they did evangelism, they did missions, they healed, they had power over demons, they were taught by the Teacher.
Jesus himself personally built his church.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Did they fully comprehend Who Jesus is, though? I think you have to know that He is the Christ, the only Son of God, to truly be in Him, and therefore have Him as your Head. If they didn't know He is God, they could not know Him as the Foundation that He is, either.Yet this group of pre-Pentecost believers behaved exactly as churches did after Pentecost ... They were empowered by their Founder and Head. The assembled, they did evangelism, they did missions, they healed, they had power over demons, they were taught by the Teacher.
Yet this group of pre-Pentecost believers behaved exactly as churches did after Pentecost.
They were empowered by their Founder and Head. The assembled, they did evangelism, they did missions, they healed, they had power over demons, they were taught by the Teacher.
Jesus himself personally built his church.
They did all of that, true, but they HAD to receive the wmpowering and person of the Holy spirit at pentacost in order to be effective witnesseses and Apostles for Jesus, as He came to inspire their writtings, and to give them Apostolic gifting to do as they did in acts!
he had not yet fallen upon any of them in the new Covenant fashion yet, as jesus had not yet died/been raised to allow that to happen!
Did they fully comprehend Who Jesus is, though? I think you have to know that He is the Christ, the only Son of God, to truly be in Him, and therefore have Him as your Head. If they didn't know He is God, they could not know Him as the Foundation that He is, either.
Think peter and John had that revealed to them by the fFther, and think all the other Apostles knew who he calimed to be, and what he was sent to do, but until pentacost, could not "fit all the pieces together!"
remember how they denied him, kept failing to see Him as needing to die, its when the Spirit came upon them and infilled them, could look back and fully see!
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
In the very next breath after Peter stated "You are the Christ!" he denied Jesus' destiny with the cross, a clear indication that he may have known intellectually who Jesus is, but not with any heart intensity. We don't really know if John knew when Jesus was still on Earth, or if, like the other disciples, the truth was revealed at Jesus' resurrection.Think peter and John had that revealed to them by the fFther, and think all the other Apostles knew who he calimed to be, and what he was sent to do, but until pentacost, could not "fit all the pieces together!"
AFTER He was crucified, resurrected and ascended.remember how they denied him, kept failing to see Him as needing to die, its when the Spirit came upon them and infilled them, could look back and fully see!
In the very next breath after Peter stated "You are the Christ!" he denied Jesus' destiny with the cross, a clear indication that he may have known intellectually who Jesus is, but not with any heart intensity. We don't really know if John knew when Jesus was still on Earth, or if, like the other disciples, the truth was revealed at Jesus' resurrection.
AFTER He was crucified, resurrected and ascended.
Exactly! that is why to me the Church oer sau started at pentacost, for at that time, and forever after, all were saved/dsealed/indwelt by same Spirit, and the Apsotles became "fully convinced/empowered" at that time!
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying, Yeshua.Exactly! that is why to me the Church oer sau started at pentacost, for at that time, and forever after, all were saved/dsealed/indwelt by same Spirit, and the Apsotles became "fully convinced/empowered" at that time!
Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying, Yeshua.
Those holding to just local church being the calle dout ones in the nT scriptures would not see pentacost as birth of the New Church, but I see the Church as being the Body/breide of Jesus, all those redeemed by Him since day of pentacost forward....
As at that time, the Spirit came to start a a new work, as he would now seal/indwel those who were saved, writing the law in them, and would be in and with them!
Tom Butler
New Member
Here's an interesting verse to chew on:
John 5:29
So, that raises the question, what was the bride if it was not the church Jesus himself founded and was building? And which John the Baptist said the bridegroom already had.
In addition, John the Baptist described himself as a friend of the bridegroom. Not a future bridegroom, but He who is the bridegroom at that moment.
John 5:29
John the Baptist is speaking of the Christ. He called Him the bridegroom. John said the bridegroom has the bride.He that hath the bride is the bridegroom.
So, that raises the question, what was the bride if it was not the church Jesus himself founded and was building? And which John the Baptist said the bridegroom already had.
In addition, John the Baptist described himself as a friend of the bridegroom. Not a future bridegroom, but He who is the bridegroom at that moment.
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Tom Butler
New Member
Here's another interesting verse:
Mark 1:1
Whoa! Before Pentecost.
Mark 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ....
Whoa! Before Pentecost.
Tom Butler
New Member
I was thinking about Matthew 18, where Jesus gave his disciples (assembled by the way) instructions on church discipline. At one point, He told them "tell it to the church."
Matthew failed to record the reaction of the disciples. It does raise the question why they didn't respond. "Uh, Master, what are you talking about? What's a church? Where is it? Where is it that we go to tell it something?"
Could it be that they knew exactly what Jesus was talking about?
Matthew failed to record the reaction of the disciples. It does raise the question why they didn't respond. "Uh, Master, what are you talking about? What's a church? Where is it? Where is it that we go to tell it something?"
Could it be that they knew exactly what Jesus was talking about?
Tom Butler
New Member
And then there's Acts 2:41
That something was a congregation which had had a prayer meeting and held and election. Let's call it a church meeting.
Before Pentecost.
Wait a minute. Luke records that there were ADDED to them. Who is them? To be added to means there was something already there to be added to.And the same day there were added to them about three thousand souls.
That something was a congregation which had had a prayer meeting and held and election. Let's call it a church meeting.
Before Pentecost.
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Tom Butler
New Member
How about another interesting verse:And then there's Acts 2:41
Wait a minute. Luke records that there were ADDED to them. Who is them? To be added to means there was something already there to be added to.
That something was a congregation which had had a prayer meeting and held and election. Let's call it a church meeting.
Before Pentecost.
Psalm 22:22
Psalm 22 is, of course, a prophecy of JesusI will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.]
And remember, Psalms are songs. So this is a prophecy of Jesus singing in the congregation.
When did he do that?
Mark 14:26
When was that? At the conclusion of the Passover meal and the first Lord's Supper.And when they had sung a hymn they went out into the Mount of Olives.
Before Pentecost. In a congregation. In an assembly. In a church meeting.
We observe the Lord's Supper today in the same way at the church I serve.
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And, being assembled (συναλιζόμενος) together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. Acts 1:4 Not ἐκκλησία
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8 They will witness after being given the Holy Spirit.
Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Acts 1:12-15 No where the word ἐκκλησία is used.
They had not yet been added to:
Giving thanks unto the Father, from Col 1:12 of his dear Son: from Col 1:13 Who (the Son) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15 And he (The Son) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:32 and from 2:33
Jesus of Nazareth whom they took and crucified, God the Father gave birth from the dead, giving him the promise of the Holy Spirit and Jesus of Nazareth became the head of the corner the chief corner stone, the beginning of the church, the head of the body. The above verses plus Acts 4:10,11
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Acts 2:1 they the about 120 from chapter 1
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4 the 120 were added to the head, the firstborn from the dead. They had: come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, (from the dead, the only to date so born) which are written in heaven,from Heb 12:22,23
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. from Acts 2:33 the promise of the Holy Spirit that had been received from the Father.
The about 3000 were added to the about 120 and to the head Jesus of Nazareth. Among that 3000 could have been locals from as far away as Libya, Mesopotamia, Rome.
I guess you could call the known world local if you want to.
From hear on out I cry. U N C L E.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8 They will witness after being given the Holy Spirit.
Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Acts 1:12-15 No where the word ἐκκλησία is used.
They had not yet been added to:
Giving thanks unto the Father, from Col 1:12 of his dear Son: from Col 1:13 Who (the Son) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15 And he (The Son) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:32 and from 2:33
Jesus of Nazareth whom they took and crucified, God the Father gave birth from the dead, giving him the promise of the Holy Spirit and Jesus of Nazareth became the head of the corner the chief corner stone, the beginning of the church, the head of the body. The above verses plus Acts 4:10,11
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Acts 2:1 they the about 120 from chapter 1
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4 the 120 were added to the head, the firstborn from the dead. They had: come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, (from the dead, the only to date so born) which are written in heaven,from Heb 12:22,23
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. from Acts 2:33 the promise of the Holy Spirit that had been received from the Father.
The about 3000 were added to the about 120 and to the head Jesus of Nazareth. Among that 3000 could have been locals from as far away as Libya, Mesopotamia, Rome.
I guess you could call the known world local if you want to.
From hear on out I cry. U N C L E.
How about another interesting verse:
Psalm 22:22
Psalm 22 is, of course, a prophecy of Jesus
And remember, Psalms are songs. So this is a prophecy of Jesus singing in the congregation.
When did he do that?
Mark 14:26
When was that? At the conclusion of the Passover meal and the first Lord's Supper.
Before Pentecost. In a congregation. In an assembly. In a church meeting.
We observe the Lord's Supper today in the same way at the church I serve.
In heaven right now, in presense of the Lord, and here on the earth...
Does God see us as baptists/methodists/presby/Nazarene etc, or are we in ONE BODY, ONE Bride, One Church, the Church of jesus christ?
They observed the Lord's supper without understanding. They had no clue what he meant by His body being broken, nor His blood being shed.How about another interesting verse:
Psalm 22:22
Psalm 22 is, of course, a prophecy of Jesus
And remember, Psalms are songs. So this is a prophecy of Jesus singing in the congregation.
When did he do that?
Mark 14:26
When was that? At the conclusion of the Passover meal and the first Lord's Supper.
Before Pentecost. In a congregation. In an assembly. In a church meeting.
We observe the Lord's Supper today in the same way at the church I serve.
This was prior to his being taken in the Garden, this took place after after the Supper.. from chapters 14, 15, and 16, we note they have no understanding of what Jesus means by 'having to go away', and we even have Peter pledging to die for Jesus, meaning he would not let anyone hurt him and yet Jesus tells him not only will he NOT die for him (yet), but he will deny Him.Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Now I ask you, does your church do this? allow people who don't understand to partake in the Lord's Supper? Paul states it was given as a Memorial, to REMEMBER what He did.. something done to look back to His finished work. To the disciples, it made no sense but they followed along.
On your statement of Psa 22:
"I believe" you have taken that passage and stripped it clean of any contextual meaning and apparently left off the fact that Hebrews speaks to that verse and clarifies it.
The prophesy is contextually speaking of the Crusifiction of Christ and after, NOT the Crusifiction and then a single sentence flash-back, then jump forward again to after the crusifiction.
Heb 2:9-18 also contextually speak of the death and resurrection of Christ as it speaks of him suffering the death and being crowned with glory and in vs 12 restates Ps 22. These passages in Hebrews says that through His sufferings He is the Captain of our salvation so we [those who believe] might be delivered - by His death (vss 14, 15). Thus all of this is speaking to after His death and resurrection. The Sanctifier and us who are sanctified, [by faith] are one (again, by context this sanctification is due to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ in they have trust in).
Another point is that Jesus never called the disciples his brothers pre-death, he called them 'friends' but not family, not yet.
Here is an exert from MacArther on Heb 2:
Brotherhood Began after the Cross
The Lord Jesus never called His people brothers on the other side of the cross. Before Calvary He called them disciples or friends or sheep, but never brothers. Why? Because they could not truly be brothers until after the cross, when their sin was paid for and His righteousness was imputed to them. Only then did they become spiritual brothers of the Lord. As soon as Jesus was risen from the dead, He said to Mary, “Go to My brethren.” For the first time He called His disciples brothers.
And again, “I will put My trust in Him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me.” (2:13)
Jesus, when He was in this world, learned the obedience of faith, and thereby became the perfect Savior. Even the Old Testament revealed that Christ would put His trust in the Father. In the same passage it was also revealed that His brothers would do the same: Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me. Jesus Christ is not our Brother because of our common nature, since He is divine and we are human. For the same reason He is not our Brother because of common wisdom or power. He is our Brother because of common righteousness and common faith in the Father.
What a wonderful thing to realize that when we are called to walk by faith, to submit ourselves to God and to live in total dependence on Him, we are called to follow the path that Jesus walked. That is exactly what He did. “The Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner” (John 5:19). Brotherhood with Jesus means that we possess His righteousness and that we walk by faith as He did.
This brings up an interesting question from me: (just curious)
1. If they were the Church prior to His death, then why did He have to give Himself (die on behalf of) for the Church? Did it not already exist?
2. If it did exist, does that not make it is a different kind of church than the church that came into being AFTER Christ's death and resurrection, since it was not necessary for the former, it was for the later?
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They observed the Lord's supper without understanding. They had no clue what he meant by His body being broken, nor His blood being shed.
This was prior to his being taken in the Garden, this took place after after the Supper.. from chapters 14, 15, and 16, we note they have no understanding of what Jesus means by 'having to go away', and we even have Peter pledging to die for Jesus, meaning he would not let anyone hurt him and yet Jesus tells him not only will he NOT die for him (yet), but he will deny Him.
Now I ask you, does your church do this? allow people who don't understand to partake in the Lord's Supper? Paul states it was given as a Memorial, to REMEMBER what He did.. something done to look back to His finished work. To the disciples, it made no sense but they followed along.
On your statement of Psa 22:
"I believe" you have taken that passage and stripped it clean of any contextual meaning and apparently left off the fact that Hebrews speaks to that verse and clarifies it.
The prophesy is contextually speaking of the Crusifiction of Christ and after, NOT the Crusifiction and then a single sentence flash-back, then jump forward again to after the crusifiction.
Heb 2:9-18 also contextually speak of the death and resurrection of Christ as it speaks of him suffering the death and being crowned with glory and in vs 12 restates Ps 22. These passages in Hebrews says that through His sufferings He is the Captain of our salvation so we [those who believe] might be delivered - by His death (vss 14, 15). Thus all of this is speaking to after His death and resurrection. The Sanctifier and us who are sanctified, [by faith] are one (again, by context this sanctification is due to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ in they have trust in).
Another point is that Jesus never called the disciples his brothers pre-death, he called them 'friends' but not family, not yet.
Here is an exert from MacArther on Heb 2:
This brings up an interesting question from me: (just curious)
1. If they were the Church prior to His death, then why did He have to give Himself (die on behalf of) for the Church? Did it not already exist?
2. If it did exist, does that not make it is a different kind of church than the church that came into being AFTER Christ's death and resurrection, since it was not necessary for the former, it was for the later?
also, can there be a Church assembly if the Holy Spirit has not come to indwell and seal any of them as of yet?
Tom Butler
New Member
Rev 13:8 gives what I think is an insight info some of what Allen is asking about.
This says to me that in the mind of God, Jesus' death on the cross was a certainty, and was a done deal, even though it took place thousands of years later.
If the shedding of Jesus blood redeems lost people, washes away sins, reconciles men to Christ, then we have to ask the question, were any saved before then?
We know the answer is yes, because we know of Abraham and Moses, and David and Solomon, and Daniel.
I think Rev 13:8 makes it possible for us to see that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were justified by faith in God's promise of a Messiah.
It also helps us to see how His church could exist prior to His resurrection, and that there were believers baptized into that church.
If the church didn't exist prior to His death, then neither could salvation of individuals, because he paid the same price for each of them.
We know salvation does and did exist, in anticipation of Jesus' death on the cross.
In the same way, a church could exist.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This says to me that in the mind of God, Jesus' death on the cross was a certainty, and was a done deal, even though it took place thousands of years later.
If the shedding of Jesus blood redeems lost people, washes away sins, reconciles men to Christ, then we have to ask the question, were any saved before then?
We know the answer is yes, because we know of Abraham and Moses, and David and Solomon, and Daniel.
I think Rev 13:8 makes it possible for us to see that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were justified by faith in God's promise of a Messiah.
It also helps us to see how His church could exist prior to His resurrection, and that there were believers baptized into that church.
If the church didn't exist prior to His death, then neither could salvation of individuals, because he paid the same price for each of them.
We know salvation does and did exist, in anticipation of Jesus' death on the cross.
In the same way, a church could exist.
Rev 13:8 gives what I think is an insight info some of what Allen is asking about.
This says to me that in the mind of God, Jesus' death on the cross was a certainty, and was a done deal, even though it took place thousands of years later.
If the shedding of Jesus blood redeems lost people, washes away sins, reconciles men to Christ, then we have to ask the question, were any saved before then?
We know the answer is yes, because we know of Abraham and Moses, and David and Solomon, and Daniel.
I think Rev 13:8 makes it possible for us to see that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were justified by faith in God's promise of a Messiah.
It also helps us to see how His church could exist prior to His resurrection, and that there were believers baptized into that church.
If the church didn't exist prior to His death, then neither could salvation of individuals, because he paid the same price for each of them.
We know salvation does and did exist, in anticipation of Jesus' death on the cross.
In the same way, a church could exist.
Were they all in the OT though filed with the Spriit, sealed/indwelt? Think not, as he came and went upon only certain ones like prophets/ kings!