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Jesus Suffered In Hell For Our Sins? Is That Biblical?
- Thread starter BibleTalk
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I don"t how I could have made it any plainer but I will try.
That Jesus Christ suffered in hell is one of the many heretical beliefs of the Word of Faith movement. Hank Hanegraaff in his revision of the Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin, page 497ff, notes the following about this heretical movement:
"In order to redeem humanity, Jesus had to die spiritually as well as physically. When He died spiritually, he died in the same way that Adam died. In other words, He lost His divine nature and was given the nature of Satan. Jesus’ death on the cross and His shed blood did not atone for our sins. The atonement took place in hell through the devil's torturing of Jesus’ spirit for three days and three nights. Unfortunately for Satan, Jesus was taken to hell ‘illegally’ because He had never sinned. This ‘technicality’ enabled God to use His ‘force of faith’ to revive Jesus’ spirit, restore Jesus’ divine nature, and resurrect Jesus’ body. Through the resurrection process Jesus was ‘born again’. "
Since I have labeled this movement as heretical and do not consider myself a heretic it obviously does not reflect my beliefs. I hope that is sufficiently clear.
Abrahams bosom is not heaven.annsni said:
Till Jesus died and rose again N
NE could go to heaven because all men still retained their sins - they were 'covered' (like a blanket over an oil spill) but they were not removed. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.I also don't recollect any place in scripture that says God's name is also Abraham, yet it was to Abraham that the rich man pleaded not God.
However, Jesus was not 'tormented nor punished' in Hell. There were two compartments of hell before Jesus death and resurrection. When you study scripture about hell you will find that the Bible says Hell enlarges itself daily, and is like a "holding chamber" or jail in terms. (II Peter 2:4,9).
There has been no judgment/sentencing has commenced but the people who were there were awaiting it in the proper places. Before Christ died and rose again hell consisted of two compartments seperated by a great gulf. Heaven is not seperated from Hell by a big chasm. Those who were of faith were awaiting their promised redemption and those not of faith awaithing their judgment.
But even if you don't agree with this (and there is biblically more to it) Jesus himself stated to Mary that He has not yet accended toward the Father. If Jesus was in heaven with the Father then He lied to Mary. Jesus did not go the Father but the spirits imprisoned (regardless of if you hold they were saints waiting for Him to reveal Himself or if you think they were Pre-flood people).
There is also the problem that would place Jesus resurrection as the second coming. Because He accended to Heaven and then came back down.
And lastly, lest we forget, hell also is stated to be in lower parts of the earth just as the grave is.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Allan said:Abrahams bosom is not heaven.
Till Jesus died and rose again N
I also don't recollect any place in scripture that says God's name is also Abraham, yet it was to Abraham that the rich man pleaded not God.
However, Jesus was not 'tormented nor punished' in Hell. There were two compartments of hell before Jesus death and resurrection. When you study scripture about hell you will find that the Bible says Hell enlarges itself daily, and is like a "holding chamber" or jail in terms. (II Peter 2:4,9).
I am real curious which Scripture teaches that "Hell enlarges itself daily".
Allan said:
Unfortunately in the New Testament [KJV] the word hell is used to translate the word used for grave, Hades, and the word used for the place of punishment, the hell of fire [Gehenna]. However, I don't believe that you will find much Scriptural support for what you say. If so then quote it.
I believe that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable showing that some would not accept Jesus Christ even after His resurrection. That being said, there are at least two references in the Old Testament that indicate certain men were taken to heaven:
Genrsis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
2Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
If two were taken there is no reason to believe that others were not.
MB said:
quote of EdSutton:annsni said:Nope....
"Yep!"
That is exactly what that particular verse means!
I believe the problem here to be that most are reading this from the KJV, which, among its idiosyncrasies, has the translation the Greek Word "Hades", as 'hell', which was not a particularly poor or incorrect rendering, in the English language in and of itself in 1611, but which rendering fails to denote the distinction between the Greek words of "Hades" (equivalent in force to the Hebrew "Sheol", which is the realm of the dead or realm of the departed spirits, whichever rendering, one might prefer) and the Greek word "Gehenna", also rendered as "hell" in the KJV, but which carries the idea of eternal torment in everlasting fire, and which was prepared for the devil and his angels. I believe that the eternal Lake of Fire is identical to "gehenna". The Lake of Fire is a permanent place; Hades has never been anything but a temporary 'holding' place, as it were, for that place, itself, will be cast into the Lake of Fire. There are multiple other things taught about Hades as well. I believe there were at least four distinct 'sections' of Hades, one of which was always empty.
The first was the place where the saved dead went, prior to Jesus' resurrection. It was a great place, but even so, only foreshadowed the much greater place in the personal presence of the Lord. This section was known as Paradise and/or Abraham's bosom, which we know from the account of Lazarus.
The second was known as "Torments", where the unsaved went, to actually await judgment for an even worse fate.
The third I believe to be a place found inside "Torments" known as Tartarus, which was the 'inside prison', so to speak, where the fallen angels who "did not keep their proper domain" were chained. This may be the same as the "Bottomless pit" or Abyss, but I am not yet convinced, in my own mind, whether the Abyss is identical to Tartarus, or is yet another part of Hades, also located within Torments.
The fourth was the Great Gulf or Chasm "fixed" between Paradise and Torments, which was always 'unpopulated.'
Incidentally, one reason I believe that Tartarus and/or maybe the Bottomless Pit are located 'inside' Torments, is because there was one Gulf fixed, separating Paradise, not three or four, from what I see in Scripture.
Other things about Hades, include the fact that the Gates of Hades would never prevail against the church. I believe the Gates of Hades did prevail against the OT saints, at death, as they went to be in the Paradise section of Hades. I believe the reason it is identified as Abraham's bosom, is that the most notable individual there was Abraham. (One might here note that Abraham was the one who preached to the rich man, not the Lord. The Church, i.e. the saints after Pentecost, goes to be with the Lord, at death, Jesus now having taken Paradise with him to the third heaven.) Jesus went to Hades (for a three-day 'visit', only, and was there waiting to greet the thief). Jesus preached to the angels (spirits) in Tartarus; then lead captivity captive - Paradise and its occupants when he left the place.
I would add that Hades 'changed' from time to time, depending on God's plan, as it relates to time; and this differs from the Lake of Fire, as well, which serves only one purpose.
There is much more I would like to add, but it is already a long post, plus it's 3 hrs. past my bedtime. I will attempt to list the verses for these points, should Someone request, but right now, that would take even more needed sleep-time. :sleeping_2:
Ed
One more note: I had not seen any other posts on this, since the one of annsni that I replied to, since I have been working on my post on an off and on basis for about 12 hours, between times, and had my post continually up, on the screen. I note that it is similar to Allan's, but I did not even have any idea that another was posting to this specific topic, nor did I know anything about what Allan believes, nor would we even know each other.
G'nite, all.
Ed
G'nite, all.
Ed
Tom Butler
New Member
Quote: Originally Posted by Tom Butler
The reference to the "lower parts of the earth" means the grave--burial. Jesus physical body was in the grave. He himself was with the Father.
Allan, on this subject, I'm rapidly approaching the limits of my "pay grade," as some famous person said recently.
I'm going to do something I'd rather not do, and that's cherry-pick a couple of scriptures which appear to bolster my view.
First, I did a little research to see what various folks said about the "heart of the earth," about Hades and Hell, about Paradise, "spirits in prison," etc. I came away with my head spinning. You articulated your view as well or better than any of them.
Let me cherry-pick and show you why I'm addled.
First, when Jesus said "It is finished," it seems to me that that was it--there was nothing left for Jesus to do to complete the atonement for sin.
You have said that Paradise and Abraham's bosom are not heaven. Then I run across II Corinthians 12:2-4. Paul writes of being caught up into the third heaven, where he was taught many things by the Lord. In v. 4 he speaks of being "caught UP into paradise." I read this passage to mean that Paul was referring to himself, and was claiming that he was taught directly by Jesus himself, who was in the third heaven, which seems to be the same as paradise, where Jesus said he would be when he died.
Then I find Paul saying in II Corinthians 5:8 "...absent from the body, present with the Lord." Can this apply to Paul, but not to Jesus and the thief?
I haven't addressed your question regarding Jesus statement that he had not yet ascended to the Father. Given the scriptures I've cited, I don't know how to resolve them. Unless he is referring to that event 40 days down the road.
The reference to the "lower parts of the earth" means the grave--burial. Jesus physical body was in the grave. He himself was with the Father.
Allan said:But Tom, Jesus Himself stated that He had not yet ascended to the Father.
Who am I to believe?
Allan, on this subject, I'm rapidly approaching the limits of my "pay grade," as some famous person said recently.
I'm going to do something I'd rather not do, and that's cherry-pick a couple of scriptures which appear to bolster my view.
First, I did a little research to see what various folks said about the "heart of the earth," about Hades and Hell, about Paradise, "spirits in prison," etc. I came away with my head spinning. You articulated your view as well or better than any of them.
Let me cherry-pick and show you why I'm addled.
First, when Jesus said "It is finished," it seems to me that that was it--there was nothing left for Jesus to do to complete the atonement for sin.
You have said that Paradise and Abraham's bosom are not heaven. Then I run across II Corinthians 12:2-4. Paul writes of being caught up into the third heaven, where he was taught many things by the Lord. In v. 4 he speaks of being "caught UP into paradise." I read this passage to mean that Paul was referring to himself, and was claiming that he was taught directly by Jesus himself, who was in the third heaven, which seems to be the same as paradise, where Jesus said he would be when he died.
Then I find Paul saying in II Corinthians 5:8 "...absent from the body, present with the Lord." Can this apply to Paul, but not to Jesus and the thief?
I haven't addressed your question regarding Jesus statement that he had not yet ascended to the Father. Given the scriptures I've cited, I don't know how to resolve them. Unless he is referring to that event 40 days down the road.
ray Marshall
New Member
MB said:
The only thing that I read in my Bible is: Peterchapter 3:, 19, By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
The Bible does no where say that he decended into Hell.
Also Lazereth was in the in the busom of Abraham, (Little words trick my spelling) and from afar off the rich man saw him. That happened before JESUS died on the cross.
Marcia
Active Member
Allan said:But Tom, Jesus Himself stated that He had not yet accended to the Father.
Who am I to believe?
Hi, Allan,
Jesus had not yet ascended bodily to heaven, but he did go to the Father after his death on the cross. The statement you refer to here is about bodily ascension.
Also, I've heard that "Abraham's bosom" is a metaphor for or reference to God. Whatever the case may be, I think Paradise is heaven. It would be strange for Jesus to die and not go be with the Father. So he went to the Father after death, but not bodily. The bodily ascension was later and is what Jesus was referring to when speaking to Mary.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Ed
I notice your long post detailing the fate of the Old Testament Saints who died is devoid of supporting Scripture.
I notice your long post detailing the fate of the Old Testament Saints who died is devoid of supporting Scripture.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The writer of Hebrews [otherwise known as the Apostle Paul] tells us in Chapter 9
11. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20. Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Did Jesus Christ wait until the resurrection of His body to enter the Holy Place with the blood of the Covenant [His Blood] or did He do it immediately upon His death? I think immediately!
11. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20. Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Did Jesus Christ wait until the resurrection of His body to enter the Holy Place with the blood of the Covenant [His Blood] or did He do it immediately upon His death? I think immediately!
Salamander
New Member
Are you saying that on the 3rd day Jesus lied to Mary saying, "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father"?Tom Butler said:
The lower parts is plural and inclusive of hell, the great gulf, where Paradise used to be but was then, and the grave would be the highest point.
Jesus led away the captives held in captivity/ prison/ Paradise and obviously they too received his testimony/preaching of himself. If this is not what had happened, we'd have people by-passing the Gospel to get to Heaven where Paradise was removed to on the Ascention.
Jesus made a show of his enemies openly: death , hell, and the grave.:thumbsup: :godisgood:
Tom Butler
New Member
Salamander, I'll refer you to my post #31 and Marcia's post #33.
Of course, Jesus didn't lie.
I would appreciate some fleshing out of the view that Paradise was once in the lower parts of the earth and is now in heaven. Can you build a scriptural case for it? Most of what I've seen is just a flat statement that this is the case. I'm not arguing against it, I'm just trying to figure out how one arrives at that conclusion.
Of course, Jesus didn't lie.
I would appreciate some fleshing out of the view that Paradise was once in the lower parts of the earth and is now in heaven. Can you build a scriptural case for it? Most of what I've seen is just a flat statement that this is the case. I'm not arguing against it, I'm just trying to figure out how one arrives at that conclusion.
Marcia
Active Member
Salamander said:
I believe that the phrase "lower parts of earth" always meant the grave.
By your statement about Jesus leading the captives, do you mean he was giving the gospel to unbelievers in hell?
The word there is "proclamation" and means "announcement," not giving the gospel. So if Jesus did do this (and it is only one of several views), he was proclaiming victory, not preaching to unsaved dead people to save them.
Salamander said:
Jesus did not want to be touched since He had physically not ascended to the Father yet.
Here's an article by Wayne Grudem on this subject. You're going to have to print it out or else lay down to read it since it's posted sideways from a book. LOL But it's a good article. Worth printing out.
http://www.phoenixseminary.edu/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=scp3cdhVlh4=&tabid=223&mid=927
Salamander said:
I don't know if I can survive the shock!
Properly understood, I agree with the majority of what you have said, here.
A quote by 'Fred Sanford', (as he looked skyward and staggered around, holding his chest, for effect):
:laugh:
Ed
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