Jesus Suffered In Hell For Our Sins? Is That Biblical?

[OldRegular]

Me4Him

Scripture does not contradict itself. The soul of Jesus Christ went into the presence of God the Father when he died just as the souls of all believers. Scripture is very clear on this regardless of what anyone else says. They do not speak infallibly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Scripture does.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You apparently don't understand the Scripture you are posting. The above statement is very simple to understand.

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him

Scripture does not contradict itself. The soul of Jesus Christ went into the presence of God the Father when he died just as the souls of all believers. Scripture is very clear on this regardless of what anyone else says. They do not speak infallibly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Scripture does.

But scriptures say souls prior to Jesus went to "Abraham Bosom", so "who were" and where did these "Captives" come from that Jesus took to heaven when he ascended??

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You apparently don't understand the Scripture you are posting. The above statement is very simple to understand.

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And "in hell" he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

All "spirits" don't return to God, so maybe you better re evaluate your interpretation of Ecc 12:7, animals have the "spirit of life", but they don't have "souls".

 

[Marcia]

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And "in hell" he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The rich man is in torment in hell; he sees the beggar "afar off"- this does not mean the beggar is in the same place.

I used to believe in the idea that Sheol has 2 compartments and all that jazz. But I don't see it explicitly taught in the Bible, and less and less do I see it implicitly taught. So I am considering strongly another view.

"Abraham's Bosom" is an idiom or term for paradise - a nice place you go to after death. It is figurative, not literal. I think it was a Jewish way to describe heaven. The OT also talks about how some OT saints and patriarchs would "sleep with their fathers" when they died. Well, they didn't really sleep - they died. A lot of figurative language is used about death in the Bible.

The phrase "to be in one's bosom" applies to the person who so reclines at the table that his head is brought almost into the bosom of the one sitting next above him. To be in Abraham's bosom signified to occupy the seat next to Abraham. Jesus, accommodating His speech to the Jews, describes the condition of Lazarus after death by this figure (Luke 16:22-23)." [1]

Abraham's Bosom is not spoken of as in Hades but rather as something separate from it (Luke 16:23). Thus, it should be understood as a place of happiness and rest. In parallel, Matthew 8:11 gives reference to those who will "sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." Some have also considered this to be the equivalent of the Paradise of Luke 23:43.

Source
http://www.theopedia.com/Abraham's_Bosom

 

[OldRegular]

All "spirits" don't return to God, so maybe you better re evaluate your interpretation of Ecc 12:7, animals have the "spirit of life", but they don't have "souls".

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Me4Him

Scripture does not contradict itself. The soul of Jesus Christ went into the presence of God the Father when he died just as the souls of all believers. Scripture is very clear on this regardless of what anyone else says. They do not speak infallibly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Scripture does.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You apparently don't understand the Scripture you are posting. The above statement is very simple to understand.

Me4Him

Read the post carefully before you go off on a tangent.

 

[Me4Him]

"Abraham's Bosom" is an idiom or term for paradise - a nice place you go to after death. It is figurative, not literal.

I suppose the conversation between the rich man and Abraham "NEVER" took place either,

Just a "Figure of speech", no "literal" conversation????

Are you familar with "Jewish" belief regarding death/souls???

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him

Read the post carefully before you go off on a tangent.

I made a Mistake, I meant to say:

"All Spirits "DO" return to God, the spirit of "life", (animals) but not all "souls".

 

[ajg1959]

Dr. Belanger - Common "netiquete" is that you post an introduction, get to know the board some before you start posting "teaching". Without that, you don't know our beliefs and might be teaching us something that has already been discussed and hashed out. Otherwise it is considered a "drive by spam" and is against the board rules, if I remember correctly. Stay, discuss and get to know those who come to this board.

yeah Dr Belanger......after 1000 posts by me, now the board has gotten to know me, and they are suffering for it. But it took time for them to get to know me....(and suffer)

AJ

 

[annsni]

yeah Dr Belanger......after 1000 posts by me, now the board has gotten to know me, and they are suffering for it. But it took time for them to get to know me....(and suffer)

AJ

:wavey:

Suffer? Nah - end up with a need for chocolate? Definitely.

 

[OldRegular]

I suppose the conversation between the rich man and Abraham "NEVER" took place either,

Just a "Figure of speech", no "literal" conversation????

Probably not. I believe that this event is a parable though not identified as such. Incidentally this passage is the only place in the Bible where the term Abraham's bosom occurs. That is one reason I believe it is a parable.

Are you familar with "Jewish" belief regarding death/souls???

The Jews missed Christ so why should we be concerned about their belief regarding death/souls??? If it did not make it into Scripture it doesn't matter. That is where you dispensationalists went astray, reading the Darby/Scofield fables.

 

[OldRegular]

I made a Mistake, I meant to say:

"All Spirits "DO" return to God, the spirit of "life", (animals) but not all "souls".

You made another mistake. Spirit and soul are used interchangeably in Scripture when referring to man.

 

[Me4Him]

Probably not. I believe that this event is a parable though not identified as such. Incidentally this passage is the only place in the Bible where the term Abraham's bosom occurs. That is one reason I believe it is a parable.

Nu 11:11 And Moses said unto the LORD, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?

12 Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?

Here's your "figure of speech".

The Jews missed Christ so why should we be concerned about their belief regarding death/souls??? If it did not make it into Scripture it doesn't matter. That is where you dispensationalists went astray, reading the Darby/Scofield fables.

The Jews have forgot more about the OT than most Christians will ever know, they may not be able to relate it to the NT, but learning what they believe and being able to relate it to the NT make you "TWICE" as "Smart" as the next person, (OT and NT)

Get the picture???

Why would I want to waste my time reading Darby when I can read "God's words" and have the "comforter" for a "teacher"???

That's part of the problem today, too many books "about the Bible" being read instead of the Bible it's self.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Probably not. I believe that this event is a parable though not identified as such. Incidentally this passage is the only place in the Bible where the term Abraham's bosom occurs. That is one reason I believe it is a parable.

Response by Me4Him
Nu 11:11 And Moses said unto the LORD, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?

12 Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?

Here's your "figure of speech".

May be a figure of speech but it is not Abraham's bosom!:laugh:

Originally Posted by OldRegular
The Jews missed Christ so why should we be concerned about their belief regarding death/souls??? If it did not make it into Scripture it doesn't matter. That is where you dispensationalists went astray, reading the Darby/Scofield fables.

Response by Me4Him
The Jews have forgot more about the OT than most Christians will ever know, they may not be able to relate it to the NT, but learning what they believe and being able to relate it to the NT make you "TWICE" as "Smart" as the next person, (OT and NT)

Get the picture???

Most Jews today are either agnostic or atheist. What Jews are you talking about who are OT scholars?

 

[Marcia]

I suppose the conversation between the rich man and Abraham "NEVER" took place either,

Just a "Figure of speech", no "literal" conversation????

Where did I say or imply that??????? Don't put words in my mouth, please.

There is a in-house disagreement on whether this is a parable or not. Is that what you are referring to?

Are you familar with "Jewish" belief regarding death/souls???

Why do you ask?

 

[Allan]

Marcia,

Let your heart be at peace. The soul of Jesus Christ went into the presence of God the Father when he died just as the souls of all believers. Scripture is very clear on this regardless of what anyone else says. They do not speak infallibly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Scripture does.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Do you also believe that God allows sin into heaven to dwell?

If not, then you have a serious theological problem regarding scripture since the OT saints retained their sins but that their sins were only 'covered' not removed. We find this little ditty in the book of Hebrews:

Hbr 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hbr 10:15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Hbr 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hbr 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

But notice what the writer of Hebrews says about those who sins have been removed - it is really cool

Hbr 10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.
Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

These whos sin is 'removed' has the boldness to enter the holiest, by the "blood of Jesus".

It is like a man who rolled around in old car oil (the black dirty stuff ) and then someone places a white fur coat 'over' the oil stained body. Even though they 'appear' beautifully roded they still have underneath that same grimy dirty staining substance upon them.

 

[Allan]

Marcia,

Let your heart be at peace. The soul of Jesus Christ went into the presence of God the Father when he died just as the souls of all believers. Scripture is very clear on this regardless of what anyone else says. They do not speak infallibly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Scripture does.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

One last thing on the above verse. It is a little thing called context. Bothersome I know..

However, the context here is important to understand in order to properly grasp what is being conveyed. In Chaper 11 it is stating what a youths are to shun, then (beginning at verse 12:1) he is stating what they are to follow after/remember the Creator.. They are to do so with the best of their days and to continue even into the hardships of old age.

However what we have listed in verses 3-6 is not those of faith but actaully is concerning those who have NOT remembered or were not of faith and the picture is a bleak and dismal one.

The end picture of 'this' person, a person who remembered not God is that they will die and their spirit will return to God. This isn't a beautiful picture but one of judgment. It isn't about a things that happen in a time frame but that which will happen in time. This is about a non-believer because they are no longer remembering the Creator/God they claimed to know in their youth.

 

[Allan]

Marcia,

Let your heart be at peace. The soul of Jesus Christ went into the presence of God the Father when he died just as the souls of all believers. Scripture is very clear on this regardless of what anyone else says. They do not speak infallibly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Scripture does.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

One last thing on the above verse. It is a little thing called context. Bothersome I know..

However, the context here is important to understand in order to properly grasp what is being conveyed. In Chaper 11 it is stating what a youths are to shun, then (beginning at verse 12:1) he is stating what they are to follow after/remember the Creator.. They are to do so with the best of their days and to continue even into the hardships of old age.

However what we have listed in verses 3-6 is not those of faith but actaully is concerning those who have NOT remembered or were not of faith and the picture is a bleak and dismal one.

The end picture of 'this' person, a person who remembered not God is that they will die and their spirit will return to God. This isn't a beautiful picture but one of judgment. It isn't about a things that happen in a time frame but that which will happen in time on the whole. This is about a non-believer because they are no longer remembering the Creator/God they claimed to know in their youth.

Why else do you think the Preacher declares "vanities of vanities". If the context was what you were espousing your version it would be a joyous praise not vanity of vanities. Context brother. Keep things in context.

 

[Me4Him]

Are you familar with "Jewish" belief regarding death/souls???

Why do you ask?

The Jews had a belief that the Soul hung around on earth "Three days" before leaving for the "grave", and it was possible for the soul to reenter the body and the person "Revive".

I can't recall off hand the verse they used to justify this belief, If I do, I'll post it,

But, this is one reason many Jews don't believe Jesus actually died, but was "Revived".

And it's one reason Jesus waited until the "Fourth day" before "resurrecting" lazarus, To the Jews, it confirmed he was "dead".


Ps 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

Ps 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Jew believed the soul went to the grave until resurrected, we know this as "Abraham's bosom".

Paul revealed that after Jesus, Souls, "absent from the body" was "present with the lord", (Heaven), and the ones in "Abrahm's Bosom" was also "Resurrected" and taken to heaven when Jesus ascended.

Mt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,

(souls released from the captivity of the Grave/Abraham's bosom, both OT and future souls)

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Marcia,

Let your heart be at peace. The soul of Jesus Christ went into the presence of God the Father when he died just as the souls of all believers. Scripture is very clear on this regardless of what anyone else says. They do not speak infallibly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Scripture does.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Response Posted by Allan

Do you also believe that God allows sin into heaven to dwell?

Those are the words that God gave Solomon to write. Take it up with Him when you get there.

 

[MB]

Those are the words that God gave Solomon to write. Take it up with Him when you get there.

There is a difference between Soul and spirit. We are made of three parts body, soul, and spirit.
MB

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Marcia,

Let your heart be at peace. The soul of Jesus Christ went into the presence of God the Father when he died just as the souls of all believers. Scripture is very clear on this regardless of what anyone else says. They do not speak infallibly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Scripture does.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Response Posted by Allan

Do you also believe that God allows sin into heaven to dwell?

Further Response Posted by Allan
One last thing on the above verse. It is a little thing called context. Bothersome I know..

However, the context here is important to understand in order to properly grasp what is being conveyed. In Chaper 11 it is stating what a youths are to shun, then (beginning at verse 12:1) he is stating what they are to follow after/remember the Creator.. They are to do so with the best of their days and to continue even into the hardships of old age.

However what we have listed in verses 3-6 is not those of faith but actaully is concerning those who have NOT remembered or were not of faith and the picture is a bleak and dismal one.

The end picture of 'this' person, a person who remembered not God is that they will die and their spirit will return to God. This isn't a beautiful picture but one of judgment. It isn't about a things that happen in a time frame but that which will happen in time. This is about a non-believer because they are no longer remembering the Creator/God they claimed to know in their youth.

I believe there is a contradiction between your responses as highlighted above. Context, brother, Context!

Incidentally verses 3-6 do not refer to unbelief but apparently to old age.